Is it possible to make some policy changes in the Exchange ?

[338375]

I know this subject has been brought up before in various sub-forums, but thought it was time to bring the question here...

As most of us know, it is very common for sellers in the Exchange to state in their thread, Paypal Gift Option only. The other thing is that many state a price, and then state, Add XX% for Paypal to cover fees...
Besides being very irritating, both of these practices are against Paypal policy. While I know that the Mods are already busy, and don't have time to go searching for these issues, is it possible to implement a new policy, with a Sticky in each section of the Exchange stating that both of these practices are no longer allowed ? Then again, how many people read the Stickies ?

I know these practices don't bother some, but I also know that there are many who are irritated by it. If a policy were implemented, I don't think it would take long for many members to start reporting these issues. I don't know though, perhaps it would be overwhelming, because of the number of sellers that violate these policies.

I know the easiest way to deal with the problem is to just bypass that particular sale, and keep looking. It would certainly be a lot nicer if we knew every time we look at a thread in the exchange, that we wouldn't see these two things.

 

[Karda]

This subject has been beaten to death with nothing to come of it beside the statement that we shouldn't have to create policy to moderate the poor behavior of others, which leaves people to either bypass those sales or report the offenders to paypal themselves.
I seldom buy or sell on the exchange and seldom have anything to do with that area.

 

[wroughndt]

I mostly agree with you. One situation I see that I can understand someone saying "pay an extra 3% for paypal" is if they have given you an alternative payment option. For instance, if they say "I prefer money order but if you insist on paypal, you cover the 3%". In that case, you are the one insisting on using paypal so you should pay the fee (in my opinion). A local gas station does the same with debit and credit cards.

The thing that drives me nuts is the " gift or add 4%". Why?! PayPal isn't charging the seller 4%.

 

[Cereal_killer]

PayPal policy states a seller may not pass along their fee to the buyer however the seller may add an additional "service fee" to cover miscellaneous charges so technically asking for 3.5% isn't in violation of PayPal TOS unless it was specifically sated "add 3.5% to cover my PayPal fee", simply asking for an additional 3.5% "surcharge" is not against the TOS.

 

[338375]

Karda, I know the subject has been covered to no end, but it seems recently it has become more frequent. I don't buy things all the time, but it is frustrating when I do find something I really want, only to see the Gift option, or the additional fees in the thread.
In the end, it's not a life altering issue, and there are far more important issues in life, but it is still irritating. Perhaps as I have gotten older, I just have less tolerance for things.

I mostly agree with you. One situation I see that I can understand someone saying "pay an extra 3% for paypal" is if they have given you an alternative payment option. For instance, if they say "I prefer money order but if you insist on paypal, you cover the 3%". In that case, you are the one insisting on using paypal so you should pay the fee (in my opinion). A local gas station does the same with debit and credit cards.

The thing that drives me nuts is the " gift or add 4%". Why?! PayPal isn't charging the seller 4%.

Agreed. I can see it if the buyers really insists on using PP. That is another thing, the amount that is added varies between 3%-5%
The thing that really gets me about the Gift option is, the buyer has little to no recourse, if the item doesn't arrive. As a seller, I don't want the buyer feeling that they have no recourse if the item I ship doesn't arrive. IMHO, it is disrespectful to impose that on someone... Then again, nobody is forcing any of us to make a deal under those terms.

PayPal policy states a seller may not pass along their fee to the buyer however the seller may add an additional "service fee" to cover miscellaneous charges so technically asking for 3.5% isn't in violation of PayPal TOS unless it was specifically sated "add 3.5% to cover my PayPal fee", simply asking for an additional 3.5% "surcharge" is not against the TOS.

I think if you look through enough threads, you will find the bigger portion of them clearly state the additional is to cover fees.
The thing that is really irritating is that many sellers are just to damn lazy to do simple math, and just include the amount needed to cover their fees in the asking price...
Using PP is a convenience for both buyer and seller. That convenience has a value, and we are only talking a few dollars on most knives, for doing the transaction. If someone can't absorb that amount, they really shouldn't be buying and selling knives.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

We have suggested the obvious solution so many times, it is clear many sellers just aren't paying attention. They copy worst practice instead of best suggestion.

Decide how much you want for your knife.
Add in $5 for PayPal.
Add in $10 for shipping.
Total it up, post that one amount as the asking price.

Once you start breaking down the separate costs, who covers PayPal, who covers shipping, who covers insurance, who wraps in a thin paper envelope and who boxes and tapes -- you confuse yourself and your buyers.

If you want $100 dollars for your originally $150 knife, and end up dropping the price to $90, what does a PayPal fee mean anyway? Just charge a total amount you need to get.

 

[Knifenutty]

I have had transactions with quite a few members on here and have not been asked to pay any extra fee that I know of.
I cover the paypal fees and pay the net price that they had in their post.
Tracking is requested by me to protect the seller in case it doesn't arrive to me....that way I won't be leaving bad feedback for the transaction.
With the exchange rate between our countries paying an extra % of any kind on top of the price would definately make a big difference on who I deal with.

 

[markksr]

It does seem to be actually increasing in frequency as of late. :thumbdn:

I don't understand why any mention of anything remotely illegal is promptly quashed everywhere else in the forum, but defrauding PayPal of their contractually agreed upon fee is openly flaunted in The Exchange and even defended by some Moderators...

It is a disgrace.

 

[markksr]

Here is a link to a recent thread where 78% of those who voted in the poll (including numerous Mods) felt there should be a rule against it...

Should the PayPal Gift Option be permitted for sales here at Bladeforums?

 

[leghog]

This subject has been beaten to death with nothing to come of it beside the statement that we shouldn't have to create policy to moderate the poor behavior of others, which leaves people to either bypass those sales or report the offenders to paypal themselves.
I seldom buy or sell on the exchange and seldom have anything to do with that area.

There are many policies/rules here on this site specifically to "to moderate the poor behavior of others". Isn't that one of the reasons this site has moderators to begin with?

 

[Karda]

There are many policies/rules here on this site specifically to "to moderate the poor behavior of others". Isn't that one of the reasons this site has moderators to begin with?

Actually I misspoke. I believe the phrase was "to moderate the policies of other sites."
There isn't enough moderators nor time in the day to moderate people who add the percentages or pass off the fees to the buyer.
Until theres an actual policy made, I'm not touching it.

 

[powernoodle]

There is no substantive difference between saying "the knife is $100 with free shipping and no Paypal fee", and "the knife is $90, plus $4.00 for Paypal and $6.00 shipping." The only difference is that the latter approach irritates some people. "I'm not paying his Paypal fee and his shipping cost!" They like paying $100 if you don't mention Paypal, but don't like paying $100 if you do mention it. It makes no sense, but sometimes that's the way our brains work. For for a seller, maybe its a good idea just to jack the price up and then tell the seller about all of the "free" stuff he is getting. No moderator required.

 

[james terrio]

...but defrauding PayPal of their contractually agreed upon fee...

To clarify, PP is not getting defrauded unless the buyer sends the payment as a "gift" (which is a terrible idea for several reasons). On payments for goods/services, they take their percentages before the money ever hits a seller's account. It is the buyer who is being asked to either pay extra for the seller's convenience, or forfeit any recourse if the deal goes south for some reason.

There is no substantive difference between saying "the knife is $100 with free shipping and no Paypal fee", and "the knife is $90, plus $4.00 for Paypal and $6.00 shipping." The only difference is that the latter approach irritates some people.

That's not the issue at all. Different prices for different payment methods offend people. Complicating the matter this way makes no sense to me from either side of the deal...

I sell knives at a flat price that includes shipping and handling to the US (international orders obviously require more $ from the buyer, and that has never been a problem).

When folks pay me via PayPal, I do not charge them extra, because I agreed to PayPal's fees for processing the transaction for me, and I think the convenience is worth it. When people pay via check or money order, I do not give them a discount, because I have to deal with all that myself (and in the case of a check, wait for it to clear). Same knife, same price either way.

Regardless, I think buyers should take it up with the seller if they have an issue. Goodness knows many people have no problem low-balling for any other reason... tell the seller in private, "I'll take it but either you're paying the fee, or you can wait for a check/MO to come via snail-mail".

Or just complain to Paypal about them... but that's a whole other ball of wax that really has nothing to do with Spark or BF.

 

[markksr]

To clarify, PP is not getting defrauded unless the buyer sends the payment as a "gift"...

And yet this is frequently requested and done here openly.

 

[james terrio]

And yet this is frequently requested and done here openly.

Again, report the seller to PayPal. It can't be any more difficult than making repeat threads about it here... the difference is, it might actually have some impact.

 

[pbcg]

This issue comes up often and every time I see it I lend my opinion that I do not believe the use of the gift option or asking the buyer to pay the fee's should be allowed openly on BFC.

I was under the impression after the poll had been taken that a rule would be put into effect that the use of the gift option was no longer allowed? Maybe I misunderstood at the time but I thought I recalled Rev saying something to that effect.

I completely understand the prospective of the moderators that it is not their job to enforce PP's TOS. I get that but making it a rule that the gift option not be allow would go a long way. Mearly stating such I mean. That would allow buyers to say to seller's asking for gift or fee's that it is not allowed.

From reading all the threads about the subject over the years it's become clear that many sellers, particularly the newer members ask for gift or add xxx% because that what's they see others doing.

I think a "rule" would correct that as most want to do the right thing the right way but like most don't read PP's TOS themselves to know better.

I've never asked for fee's or gift when I've sold but the truth is I didn't know it was a violation of PP's TOS either until I read about it in feedback. Most just don't know it's a violation of the TOS and would stop doing it if they did.

 

[338375]

We have suggested the obvious solution so many times, it is clear many sellers just aren't paying attention. They copy worst practice instead of best suggestion.

Decide how much you want for your knife.
Add in $5 for PayPal.
Add in $10 for shipping.
Total it up, post that one amount as the asking price.

Once you start breaking down the separate costs, who covers PayPal, who covers shipping, who covers insurance, who wraps in a thin paper envelope and who boxes and tapes -- you confuse yourself and your buyers.

If you want $100 dollars for your originally $150 knife, and end up dropping the price to $90, what does a PayPal fee mean anyway? Just charge a total amount you need to get.

Exactly. It seems so simple.

To clarify, PP is not getting defrauded unless the buyer sends the payment as a "gift" (which is a terrible idea for several reasons). On payments for goods/services, they take their percentages before the money ever hits a seller's account. It is the buyer who is being asked to either pay extra for the seller's convenience, or forfeit any recourse if the deal goes south for some reason.



That's not the issue at all. Different prices for different payment methods offend people. Complicating the matter this way makes no sense to me from either side of the deal...

I sell knives at a flat price that includes shipping and handling to the US (international orders obviously require more $ from the buyer, and that has never been a problem).

When folks pay me via PayPal, I do not charge them extra, because I agreed to PayPal's fees for processing the transaction for me, and I think the convenience is worth it. When people pay via check or money order, I do not give them a discount, because I have to deal with all that myself (and in the case of a check, wait for it to clear). Same knife, same price either way.

Regardless, I think buyers should take it up with the seller if they have an issue. Goodness knows many people have no problem low-balling for any other reason... tell the seller in private, "I'll take it but either you're paying the fee, or you can wait for a check/MO to come via snail-mail".

Or just complain to Paypal about them... but that's a whole other ball of wax that really has nothing to do with Spark or BF.

:thumbup:

 

[olpappy]

If I sell an item I never ask to add 4% but I think it should be up to the seller to choose how they want to price their item. Just because something irritates your doesn't mean BF has to make a policy on it. Bladeforums should not have to make a new policy to enforce PayPal's rules. If you don't like the terms don't buy it. How about a policy against lowballing, that can be equally if not more irritating..... yet it would be absurd for BF to get involved in an issue that is between buyer and seller. If they work out a deal, fine. If they can't, then no deal. That is the whole idea of a free market.

If I buy an item I read the seller's terms carefully. Gifting is less secure because the buyer is giving up PayPal's "protection" in case the item doesn't arrive. If you accept these terms as a buyer you are knowingly doing so. That is quite different from deception or fraud. If a seller requests a gift they should be willing to issue a refund if needed. If you have questions email the seller. PayPal does charge sellers a fee, it is up to the seller how they want to deal with that.

 

[338375]

Here is a link to a recent thread where 78% of those who voted in the poll (including numerous Mods) felt there should be a rule against it...

Should the PayPal Gift Option be permitted for sales here at Bladeforums?

I don't often come in here, and I missed your poll when it was going on

 

[Barman1]

I always state PayPal goods/services for payment on the exchange and my prices include everything but some folks feel the need to pay with the gift option. Thank you for that but how many of these does Paypal tolerate before they give me the boot? Or can I pay the fees myself somehow.
Not derailing the thread I hope, just an addendum.