Is it possible to make some policy changes in the Exchange ?

I don't sell here on BF but I do on other sites and use pay-pal frequently. My future adds will be stated as follows...
$xx shipped
$xx+3% shipped with buyer protection provided by pay-pal....
You decided if the 3% is worth it or not to you. ;)
 
Rubicon_Joey said:
I don't sell here on BF but I do on other sites and use pay-pal frequently. My future adds will be stated as follows...
$xx shipped
$xx+3% shipped with buyer protection provided by pay-pal....
You decided if the 3% is worth it or not to you. ;)
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And yet that goes against Paypal's TOS. Why are you requesting the buyer to pay the fees you agreed to pay as a seller for using Paypal's service? Just so you can pocket a little extra from the sale right?

It's true that you do give the buyer a choice, pay the additional 3% to gain protection or use the gift option to save on your fees (which will then be passed on to the buyer unless they have available funds within their paypal account).

There is a third option that I will propose when coming across adds such as yours and that is to completely pass on them and choose not to do business with said seller. It's not worth it.
 
moshow9 said:
And yet that goes against Paypal's TOS. Why are you requesting the buyer to pay the fees you agreed to pay as a seller for using Paypal's service? Just so you can pocket a little extra from the sale right?

It's true that you do give the buyer a choice, pay the additional 3% to gain protection or use the gift option to save on your fees (which will then be passed on to the buyer unless they have available funds within their paypal account).

There is a third option that I will propose when coming across adds such as yours and that is to completely pass on them and choose not to do business with said seller. It's not worth it.
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I know it's against paypals TOS....

I pocket the same amount of money regardless of how the buyer pays so it's not about the money for me. I have a price I want for an item and will accept only that amount. If the buyer chooses to save themselves the money good for them, if not that's fine to.

Why do you feel it isn't worth it? Personally I have no problem trusting sellers with the feedback system that's in place here.
 
moshow9 said:
There is a third option that I will propose when coming across adds such as yours and that is to completely pass on them and choose not to do business with said seller. It's not worth it.
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Ok, so you find a really good deal on a 300$ knife you like where it's nearly 100$ below wholesale, in perfect condition, very rare, but it's not worth the 9$ that could have just as easily been added to the overall price?? You guys pick the most nonsensical crosses to bear.

There are knives listed for sale, and if you like the terms buy them, or don't if not. Giving the option for people to either send the money as gift or pay the fee is a very common practice online. If the sellers didn't list the fee, it would be added into the cost of the product. On sites like Ebay sellers often add the fee in Shipping and Handling (the handling fee). It is a practice that was adopted on forums as a way to be transparent with buyers about what the cost broke down to - like for shipping, someone that would ONLY charge you the cost of shipping the object (not a flat rate that is sure to cover the cost of shipping to anybody). I have never witnessed anybody complaining about it anywhere else.

What's even worse is that PayPal doesn't want to do these transactions - you ever wonder why knife retailers are constantly dropping PayPal as an option? They don't like doing gun and knife sales, or accessories - now there are certain knives and gun accessories that are allowed, but some investigators will put a hold on anything that mentions gun or knife until they are satisfied it meets those criteria. Getting upset over the way prices are broken down only serves to hurt the marketplace - it's childish frankly, and I can't fathom what kind of thought processes you guys are harboring that leads you to upset the marketplace you're a part of over the way sellers choose to break down their prices. It's a free market; participate, buy or don't buy - but I don't know what good you're hoping to accomplish by pitching a fit over the way prices are displayed - I think you're going to see some creative ways of adding that 3% more often.

As a buyer or seller I often try and accommodate the sales through my actions, it's called being reasonable. If you often find fault or complain about sales that are fundamentally positive (item arrives in a timely manner as described with no hiccups), you're being what's called unreasonable.
 
A Justice, please try to be A Courteous as well. There are ways to disagree without being disagreeable. Nonsensical, childish, and unreasonable are not the best words to use when trying to be persuasive.
 
338375 said:
Karda, I know the subject has been covered to no end, but it seems recently it has become more frequent. I don't buy things all the time, but it is frustrating when I do find something I really want, only to see the Gift option, or the additional fees in the thread.
In the end, it's not a life altering issue, and there are far more important issues in life, but it is still irritating. Perhaps as I have gotten older, I just have less tolerance for things.
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Seems to me that you have quite a lot of tolerance for things. If this is a recurring, known issue that disturbs you so much, why put up with it? Why do you keep going back for more, monitoring a situation that has been going on for years with no resolution unless you want to?

A couple of suggestions:

Don't buy on the exchange at all. OR...

Don't buy on the exchange from people that employ distasteful business practices.

Wow.... problem solved! Pretty easy, right? No one makes anyone do any business with one another here. You can't expect the mods here to lay down rules and regs for everyone that does business. Sellers have a right to do business as they please (even if it is clumsy and dumb), and you have a right to say NO. And with so many valued BF certified sellers and vendors... bad treatment or even just annoying treatment isn't something anyone has to put up with. The BF vendors are as good as it gets, and even if you pay a bit more than in the exchange, isn't is worth it?

I wish all of my problems could be so easily dispatched.

I started buying my knives from BF registered vendors only, and have NEVER had a problem with any knife I have ever bought from any of them that wasn't resolved immediately. That is of course, if I have even had a problem at all.

Make life easy on yourself...

Robert
 
Sounds like if we just added the PayPal fee of 3% and USPS Priority shipping + insurance and made that the selling price we'd be good. For a $200 knife that would make it about $215. That sounds like a sensible route even though the price may be higher than what others not following this formula will go with.

How would you phrase it: "PayPal only payment (I'll email you an invoice for goods and services). Includes shipping & insurance to U.S. addresses only (48 states)"...

Sure, many may not follow but at least you can post a "best practices" advice.
 
midnight flyer, I understand what you're suggesting to 338375. I'm not speaking for him specifically, but what he's posting resonates with others of us who just want best practice followed here. That doesn't have to mean new rules or an organized campaign. Maybe just threads like this for information might bring a few more sellers around.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
midnight flyer, I understand what you're suggesting to 338375. I'm not speaking for him specifically, but what he's posting resonates with others of us who just want best practice followed here. That doesn't have to mean new rules or an organized campaign. Maybe just threads like this for information might bring a few more sellers around.
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As always Esav, you are the voice of reason. Knowing this has been a long time, contentious issue I was reading the post as "why can't they do it the way I want" instead of thinking it could be instructional to others. I read frequently on the Traditional forum about folks that get good deals once in a while on the exchange, but I have had such terrific luck with the BF vendors I just don't look at it.

I should probably moderate my thinking some as when I see a problem that I can get around with no pain or payment. With so much going on these days I tend to take the easy way out whenever possible.

Thanks for the "heads up".

Robert
 
Some weeks back there was a thread that was titled, I believe, "If You're Going to be a Knife Maker be a Knife Maker". This thread was about members ponying-up for the appropriate level of membership to conduct business on this site. There was quite a hue and cry about how the host was being cheated out of revenue by members not paying for the privilege selling merchandise here. Is it not somewhat hypocritical to want members to follow the rules of this forum, but ignore it when it comes to someone else's money?
 
Some weeks back there was a thread that was titled, I believe, "If You're Going to be a Knife Maker be a Knife Maker". This thread was about members ponying-up for the appropriate level of membership to conduct business on this site. There was quite a hue and cry about how the host was being cheated out of revenue by members not paying for the privilege selling merchandise here. Is it not somewhat hypocritical to want members to follow the rules of this forum, but ignore it when it comes to someone else's money?
 
We don't expect that Paypal will enforce the terms of service of this site on their site either.
In the end it really comes down to personal responsibility in regards to right or wrong. You're either an honest person or you aren't.
 
RamZar said:
Sounds like if we just added the PayPal fee of 3% and USPS Priority shipping + insurance and made that the selling price we'd be good. For a $200 knife that would make it about $215. That sounds like a sensible route even though the price may be higher than what others not following this formula will go with.

How would you phrase it: "PayPal only payment (I'll email you an invoice for goods and services). Includes shipping & insurance to U.S. addresses only (48 states)"...

Sure, many may not follow but at least you can post a "best practices" advice.
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Um, no you just hit on another issue which irritates me which is when people will only ship to 48 states. BF should therefore make a new policy to encourage sellers to ship to all 50 states which is what USPS does, or don't you have US mail where you live?

Another thing which irritates me is when seller or traders list a bunch of knives without posting any pics, who wants to go around trying to look up every knife you never heard of just to see what it looks like? I always pass on those inconsiderate enough to post a sale without any photos. So, I think Exchange policy should be that sale / trade threads should have photos of the items for sale or trade.
 
olpappy said:
Um, no you just hit on another issue which irritates me which is when people will only ship to 48 states. BF should therefore make a new policy to encourage sellers to ship to all 50 states which is what USPS does, or don't you have US mail where you live?
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Good point. I just checked USPS Priority Mail from Los Angeles to Honululu and it's the same rate as any other state! :thumbup:
 
olpappy said:
If I sell an item I never ask to add 4% but I think it should be up to the seller to choose how they want to price their item. Just because something irritates your doesn't mean BF has to make a policy on it. Bladeforums should not have to make a new policy to enforce PayPal's rules. If you don't like the terms don't buy it. How about a policy against lowballing, that can be equally if not more irritating..... yet it would be absurd for BF to get involved in an issue that is between buyer and seller. If they work out a deal, fine. If they can't, then no deal. That is the whole idea of a free market.

If I buy an item I read the seller's terms carefully. Gifting is less secure because the buyer is giving up PayPal's "protection" in case the item doesn't arrive. If you accept these terms as a buyer you are knowingly doing so. That is quite different from deception or fraud. If a seller requests a gift they should be willing to issue a refund if needed. If you have questions email the seller. PayPal does charge sellers a fee, it is up to the seller how they want to deal with that.
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I guess they should be able to price it anyway they want, but why not make everything a lot simpler ? This is the price $XXX Delivered. Simple.
Adding the 3 or 5 percent, whichever they deem appropriate, is very simple math. With a calculator, it should only take about 5 seconds to figure it out.

How many sale threads are there that list, price is $xxx, add 3% for PP fees, or use the Gift option, and shipping is $xx. Oh, insurance is extra if you want it...
Ignorance is no excuse, but I wonder how many of these people that pay using the Gift option, actually realize they have no recourse, if the item doesn't show up ?
I think there are a lot of people that think insurance is to cover the buyer. It seems there are both sellers and buyers that think that is what it is for.

Perhaps I am only hurting myself by letting these issues bother me. I know in the last week, I have found three different knives that I really wanted, but after reading the sellers terms, I passed on them. One knife in particular would have been good for the seller, because it has been for sale for awhile now, and doesn't seem to be getting much interest. In all honesty I don't know why it isn't, but it isn't.

midnight flyer said:
As always Esav, you are the voice of reason. Knowing this has been a long time, contentious issue I was reading the post as "why can't they do it the way I want" instead of thinking it could be instructional to others. I read frequently on the Traditional forum about folks that get good deals once in a while on the exchange, but I have had such terrific luck with the BF vendors I just don't look at it.

I should probably moderate my thinking some as when I see a problem that I can get around with no pain or payment. With so much going on these days I tend to take the easy way out whenever possible.

Thanks for the "heads up".

Robert
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I like things simple as well Robert. I also like to browse the exchange. Not because I am hoping to make a killer deal, although that would be nice :D, but there are so many different knives available, a lot of times a person can find a knife that might otherwise be difficult to find. Besides, buying from another member here is a great way to get an honest description of the knife, because we know that most of us here, know a little about the item. Granted this isn't always the case, but I think a fair number of sellers here, have at least a good basic knowledge of knives. After all, that is what we are here for.

I agree 100% about the supporting vendors. I have yet to have a single problem with any of them.

Esav Benyamin said:
USPS also delivers to US possessions like Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, and Guam.
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Thanks Ed. That is something I had never thought about :o

Someone mentioned only shipping in the CONUS. I have been guilty of listing that. The only reason being because of the stories I have read about items not getting where they are supposed to go...
I have made exceptions and shipped to three different countries, and an F.O.B in the sand box, and never had any issues.
Perhaps I just don't have enough experience with overseas shipping, and am paranoid for no reason...
 
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As far as I am concerned, I'd rather people just state a single price, out the door. It would make a lot of buyers more comfortable and possibly lead to less complaint threads in Feedback. I lost count in the last year of how many people got burned by using the "Gift" option. Completely preventable issues in many cases had they just either passed on the item because they didn't want to argue over an extra $6-10, or by making an offer to the seller. People will continue to do what they do though, we will continue to see a steady stream of whine threads regarding preventable issues, questions that should have been asked before instead of after the fact, banning people for thievery, etc. etc.

RamZar said:
Good point. I just checked USPS Priority Mail from Los Angeles to Honululu and it's the same rate as any other state! :thumbup:
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That is a good point, unfortunately not everyone that sells here has had an opportunity to realize there are actually 50 states in the US, along with the territories as mentioned by Esav. They do have updated maps on the interwebz I swear! Shipping overseas to a non-US country can be problematic due to customs laws regarding importation, duty/tax/tariffs, etc. When there is conflict in these situations, it usually involves lying on customs forms (which I do not recommend) which devalues the item greatly. So should something out of the norm occur, the seller is caught in a mess. Lack of insurance and costly shipping method is also a point of contention.
 
While I'm in geenral agreement with the one simple price option,
I keep seeing the word "irritating" ... why is it irritating?

I've done hundreds of transactions thru paypal, I have yet to find a dishonest person in this community.
Are you frequently needing the recourse of paypal?

I find it irritating that gas prices have a 9/10 at the end of the gallon price but there isn't really any thing I can do about it.
Personally I find it annoying when a seller removes the price and puts SOLD in place of the value. They claim it's at the buyer's request, but I have never once had a buyer ask me to remove the price ...It's like the seller is trying to be clever or something.
 
Read RevDevil's post just before yours. All this finagling about PayPal definitely has led people into trouble. You may not have noticed but mods see a lot of problems from people using PayPal Gift.

Why post complications in a sale thread instead of doing it the easy way?
 
Simple is good. One knife, one price. The only time I make it more complicated is to offer if a person buys more than one knife at a time, I'll knock a few bucks off the total, since I'm saving a little by shipping two knives in one box.

Then again, I round everything over to end in a zero or five, too... don'tcha love it when people mark a $200 knife at $199.99 to make it sound like a better deal? :D

It's my understanding that insurance is expected. I just figure insurance under the heading of "shipping and handling". It's downright dumb to not include it regardless of rules... it's pennies on the dollar for goodness sakes. It's not a guarantee that nothing will go wrong, but at least it shows that the seller is paying attention and gives a hoot.

Esav Benyamin said:
USPS also delivers to US possessions like Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, and Guam.
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Indeed they do. I never understood the "48 states" thing. :confused:

International stuff can be a pain (sometimes it's a boatload of extra paperwork, sometimes it's easy-peasy... it just depends). I've had a couple potential buyers ask me to lie about what's in the package or severely downgrade the declared cost of a knife to save them taxes/fees on their end... let's just say those deals ended up not going through.
 
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