I was wondering if it is possible to make a knife with out haveing to heat treat it? Could I use steel that has already been heat treated like a file? The reason being is that I have no idea on how to go about heat treating, and I really dont have the money to buy a whole shop full of things that I would need. If someone could point me into the direction if a way to heat treat inexpensively that would be great also. Thanks!
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Is it possible?
- Thread starter hummer784
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 19, 1999
- Messages
- 620
Yes, it is possible. Heat treat in its simpler form is not that complicated. Annealed steel is easier to work. This question should probably be over in shop talk, you will get a better response there. Also if you do a search there is a ton of info on at home heat treatment.
Kyle Fuglesten
Kyle Fuglesten
- Joined
- Apr 19, 1999
- Messages
- 3,560
Yes it is possible to make a knife from steel that is already heat treated but extreme care must be taken to avoid ruining the heat treat. If you go that route you must avoid using files that could be surface hardened only...cheaper files are sometimes done this way..purchase a quality Nicholson file for starters.
Why not make a knife from known material like 440C and send it out for heat treat to someone like Paul Bos? Most stock removal makers take that route. Quality is assured and in house expense is gone.
Why not make a knife from known material like 440C and send it out for heat treat to someone like Paul Bos? Most stock removal makers take that route. Quality is assured and in house expense is gone.
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Messages
- 1,375
You sure can, but a file is way too hard.
Moreover any decently heat treated steel is really hard to work, and you must be very careful using power tools to avoid ruining the heat treat.
You may therefore want to try one of these two ways:
1) outsourcing
Buy your steel soft, work it up to near-final finish, send it to heat treat to a heat treat shop, get it back and finish it.
2) 1-brick forge.
It limits you to smaller knives but, for a start, that's good.
Smaller is simpler, up to a certain degree.
what you need:
1 soft firebrick (SOFT)
2 propane burners
2 propane bottles
1 large woodworking chisel
1 small woodworking chisel
5' 32 gauge iron wire.
Working on the small side of the brick, along its length use the small woodworking chisel to dig out the central portion of the brick so to create a hollow brick. Be careful and go slowly as the brick is quite fragile. DON'T throw away the powder, collect it carefully and store it away in a can.
Now use the larger chisel to enlarge the hollowed portion until it gets about half the brick thickness. Again, collect the powder and store it away in the can.
You'll end up with a square refractory tube.
use the small chisel to practice two hole, each at 1/3 of the length of the brick on the broadside, big enough to accept the burner nozzles and then some more.
Make the holes so they are angled upwards or downwards, so that the hot gases will swirl around in the chamber, rather than being projected directly against the side.
Now use the corner of the small chisel to practice narrow lines around the brick all around the top of the chamber, the bottom of the chamber, and around the sides at about 1" from the front and back of the brick. Use these guides to wrap some loops of wire around the brick so that the wire keeps the brick together both alongside and sideways.
During the first fire up the brick forge will crack. This is normal due to it's shape and non homogeneous stress in the brick sides. Don't worry. You can either repair the brick with some refractory cement mixed with some of the brick dust you put apart before, or just leave it broken and kept together by the iron wire. It works fine both ways.
With this one brick forge you'll be able to heat treat knives of about the same length of the forge itself or even slightly more if you rock them back and forth in the forge being careful to keep the knife at an homogeneous temp.
If you leave the tangs soft, you can also do pretty long knives (I always leave my tangs soft, I only h.t. them up to 1/3 of their length).
You may also use it to anneal smaller knives just by firing it up, heating to non magnetic and then blocking both ends with refractory bricks and shutting down the gas.
The refractory powder you set aside is also very useful to slow annealing.
One of the main problems you will have is keeping those damn gas bottles warm. You see, gas evaporating cools down, and reduces pressure.
DO NOT even dream of heating them directly with some flame
Best way is to put them in lukewarm water. You can then slightly heat the water with a heater fan, but even the water alone will be enough to strongly reduce the problem. Water has much more heat capacity than air, and transimts heat far better. It will keep those bottles at proper pressure for a long time.
All these equipment will cost you about 60$. The most expensive pieces will be the burners. Use propane, propane/butane mixture, MAPP gas or the like. DO NOT use bi-gas (propane or acetilene /oxygen) mixture.
It will be too hot, burn the carbon out of your steel like straw in a smelter and cost you a kidney and a cornea on the body parts black market as oxygen bottles are very expensive (and dangerous).
A single bottle will cost as much as 20$ and give you a half hour authonomy
eek.
Hope it helped.
Moreover any decently heat treated steel is really hard to work, and you must be very careful using power tools to avoid ruining the heat treat.
You may therefore want to try one of these two ways:
1) outsourcing
Buy your steel soft, work it up to near-final finish, send it to heat treat to a heat treat shop, get it back and finish it.
2) 1-brick forge.
It limits you to smaller knives but, for a start, that's good.
Smaller is simpler, up to a certain degree.
what you need:
1 soft firebrick (SOFT)
2 propane burners
2 propane bottles
1 large woodworking chisel
1 small woodworking chisel
5' 32 gauge iron wire.
Working on the small side of the brick, along its length use the small woodworking chisel to dig out the central portion of the brick so to create a hollow brick. Be careful and go slowly as the brick is quite fragile. DON'T throw away the powder, collect it carefully and store it away in a can.
Now use the larger chisel to enlarge the hollowed portion until it gets about half the brick thickness. Again, collect the powder and store it away in the can.
You'll end up with a square refractory tube.
use the small chisel to practice two hole, each at 1/3 of the length of the brick on the broadside, big enough to accept the burner nozzles and then some more.
Make the holes so they are angled upwards or downwards, so that the hot gases will swirl around in the chamber, rather than being projected directly against the side.
Now use the corner of the small chisel to practice narrow lines around the brick all around the top of the chamber, the bottom of the chamber, and around the sides at about 1" from the front and back of the brick. Use these guides to wrap some loops of wire around the brick so that the wire keeps the brick together both alongside and sideways.
During the first fire up the brick forge will crack. This is normal due to it's shape and non homogeneous stress in the brick sides. Don't worry. You can either repair the brick with some refractory cement mixed with some of the brick dust you put apart before, or just leave it broken and kept together by the iron wire. It works fine both ways.
With this one brick forge you'll be able to heat treat knives of about the same length of the forge itself or even slightly more if you rock them back and forth in the forge being careful to keep the knife at an homogeneous temp.
If you leave the tangs soft, you can also do pretty long knives (I always leave my tangs soft, I only h.t. them up to 1/3 of their length).
You may also use it to anneal smaller knives just by firing it up, heating to non magnetic and then blocking both ends with refractory bricks and shutting down the gas.
The refractory powder you set aside is also very useful to slow annealing.
One of the main problems you will have is keeping those damn gas bottles warm. You see, gas evaporating cools down, and reduces pressure.
DO NOT even dream of heating them directly with some flame
Best way is to put them in lukewarm water. You can then slightly heat the water with a heater fan, but even the water alone will be enough to strongly reduce the problem. Water has much more heat capacity than air, and transimts heat far better. It will keep those bottles at proper pressure for a long time.
All these equipment will cost you about 60$. The most expensive pieces will be the burners. Use propane, propane/butane mixture, MAPP gas or the like. DO NOT use bi-gas (propane or acetilene /oxygen) mixture.
It will be too hot, burn the carbon out of your steel like straw in a smelter and cost you a kidney and a cornea on the body parts black market as oxygen bottles are very expensive (and dangerous).
A single bottle will cost as much as 20$ and give you a half hour authonomy
eek.Hope it helped.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2001
- Messages
- 3,623
I know a guy here local that makes 100's of knives a year without heat treating them. He buys old saw mill blades, the round ones, 20" diameter and bigger. Then he cuts his blades out with a skilsaw and a metal cutting blade, he claims if you go slow you won't mess up the hardness on the blade, he then grinds in the profiles and the bevels useing a 4" x 24" belt grinder, dipping the steel constantly to keep it cool. I've used one of his knives before and they do a good job, and he can cut and grind one out in about 2hrs. depending on size, slaps handle material on and he moves on to the next one. He sells most of them to the black powder rendevous guys.
Good Luck
Bill
Good Luck
Bill
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,240
When I first started making knives, not too long ago, I would heat treat the rough forged damascus billet before doing any grinding. I did that to try to avoid any warping from the HT. Also at that time I did not have a VFD on my grinder so I was rolling about 6000 SFPM with a 40 grit A/O belt to grind my initial bevels.
I did not have many problems with ruining the HT (i did burn a couple tips though). You just have to make sure you keep the blade cool. If you keep the blade cool, the only draw back to to beveling a hardened knife, is it is going to take more work and alot more belts.
Other than that, it should work out just fine for you.
I did not have many problems with ruining the HT (i did burn a couple tips though). You just have to make sure you keep the blade cool. If you keep the blade cool, the only draw back to to beveling a hardened knife, is it is going to take more work and alot more belts.
Other than that, it should work out just fine for you.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 2,767
I made an ulu for a taxidermy shop owner a few years ago. The only thing I had large enough to work with was an old thick sawmill saw blade. The rough blank I cut out I used Dremel cutoff discs and ground the blade using a 10" wheel and the Dremel for the fingers opening. The 10" wheel ended up worked down to about a 6", and it took a BUNCH of cutoff discs. The knife turned out pretty good, and finished thickness tad over 3/16" thick. The blade has a high alloy content, polished up like a '57 Caddy bumper. Also noticed was when you would hold up the finished knife and flick your fingernail on the blade, it would ring like a bell. That stuff was really hard to work, but really did make a good blade. The owner uses it for scraping hides in her shop.