Is it the grind or the sharpener (Wicked Edge)

[whitefox]

So I bought a Wicked Edge Sharpener about 5 months ago and I been using it since. Since then I have notice most, not all, but most of knives will have one edge higher then the other. Both of the angles on each side of the guide rods are set pretty much perfect. However, once I finish each knife, one side of the edge seems higher. In this case the left side of the knife. That's if I was sharpening from behind the knife. With the back of the handle facing towards my chest.

So tonight I decided to test this sharpener out again on another knife.

Now this knife is not very thick either. Full Flat Grind. 1085 high carbon steel. The knife is set on the top slot. Here are the shots with the factory edge on the knife. The knife's edge will be brought to a 22 angle on each side. I think the factory edge is like a 26 or something.

Right side with the factory edge

Left side with the factory edge

Now here are the finished shots after the sharpening.

Right side with the 22 angle

Left side with the 22 angle

You may not see it well in the finished shots, but the left side of the blades angle has a higher "sweep" then the right does.
Now at first I thought I was sharpening on one side to much just to form the bur, but I decide to just do this knife from left to right, left to right, etc. Basically one stroke on each side to see if the the edge came out with a even line. It took me a while, but I still came out with the same results as some of the other knives I sharpened, including Kabar brand knifes, Ontario, Schrade, Gerber, Colt, etc. Of course the edge came out with a "wicked sharp edge", but I am more concerned with how the edge came out with angle and all. How one side of the edge sweeps up more or is more higher then the other side.

Does this have to do with the grind of the knife? I have noticed when sharpening a knife on a belt sander it seems more easier to sharpen a blade on the left side then it does on the right. I wonder if this can be a possibility when factory workers from different company's grind the knives or the bevel and how much metal they actually remove. For example; is it possible more metal is removed on the left side of a knife, then on the right?

 

[singularity35]

Can you flip the knife? I mean clamp it pointing in the opposite direction? If the same side still results in a higher bevel, I would then look a your technique. Could it be that you are grinding a bit more on one side? Besides, I think I saw a video of the WEPS's maker rebeveling a PM2. What he did was work more on the side with the narrower bevel until the two bevels looked more or less the same.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Please post in the proper place. Sharpening goes in Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment.

 

[whitefox]

Can you flip the knife? I mean clamp it pointing in the opposite direction? If the same side still results in a higher bevel, I would then look a your technique. Could it be that you are grinding a bit more on one side? Besides, I think I saw a video of the WEPS's maker rebeveling a PM2. What he did was work more on the side with the narrower bevel until the two bevels looked more or less the same.

You can flip it to the other side. But I am more concerned the edge is not being evenly sharpened. PM2?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'm betting it's the blade grind (primary, from spine down). The vast majority of blades are ground by hand, so making them perfectly symmetrical (relative to the centerline) is next to impossible. Combine that with the possibility that a blade might have some slight left/right bend or curve to it (very common on thinner blades, which often warp a little after heat treat/quench), and it won't quite sit the same way when turned around in a clamped jig. The grind asymmetry can sometimes be seen when looking closely at the tip, or all the way back at the choil, which will sometimes look 'thicker' on one side or the other, or 'offset' to one side or the other.

 

[leomitch]

Hi Whitefox
I have a Wicked Edge Sharpener too and maybe I can throw some tips your way. First of all, despite every effort to compensate, there will be differences in the thickness of the diamond substrate and in the structure of the paddles plus some play on the dimples on the angle setting bar. Plus there is human error in the paddling of the knife edge, not to mention an edge coming from the factory with mismatched edges. All of these may add up to a half a degree error somewhere or a little more. I found my edges improved dramatically by doing a few things.
...Each knife in my collection has the edge reworked as soon as I get it and I make sure I start with the 100 grit paddle and make sure the burr is raised on each side of the blade and I use an angle cube/inclinometer to set the angles the same on each side as accurately as I can when I first set up the knife. Then work through with the 200 grit paddle.
When I use the 400/600 paddles, I recheck the angle setting with the angle cube, double check the screws are tight in the dimples.
Then on to the 800/1000 paddles, again checking the angles with the cube and the screws. I do this each time I change paddles and/or strops...the checking is a matter of a few seconds to do but it has led me to more accurate edges balanced side to side.
Finally I have got me another useful tool...a digital laser protractor. With it one can accurately check to see what the angle really is on each side and in total. I love it.

Here is an example of the Wicked Edge with an STS-5 mounted in the vise and the angle cube in place.

Here is a shot of the digital laser protractor

One just lays the knife edge in the two V-slots and hit the laser button and it will read the angle on each side showing on the scale.
The angle cube can be bought on Amazon. com or Lee Valley tools and I suspect other places too.
The laser protractor can be bought at a site in the UK and you can get the online address at the Wicked Edge site under the Advanced Instruction section.
I hope this is helpful.

Best regards
Leo

 

[bhavaphd]

The laser protractor can be bought at a site in the UK and you can get the online address at the Wicked Edge site under the Advanced Instruction section.
I hope this is helpful.

Best regards
Leo

Leo! Where can I get a digital laser protractor. I have looked everywhere. I couldn't find it at Wicked Edge. Could you give me more info on it like the companies name and any product numbers etc...
Thanks,
Josh

 

[leomitch]

Aloha Josh
Sorry mate, I should have put this in the first time.
The laser protractor or goniometer can be found and purchased here:
http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/lkep.htm

All the best
Leo

 

[leomitch]

Josh, you may be interested in the following info on that gizmo.
Someone asked me how the laser protractor works...it is really simple. The protractor fires a perfectly straight laser beam that strikes at 0 degrees on the scale when no knife is inserted. When a knife edge is inserted in both back and front v-slots and the laser is triggered, the shiny edges of the edge bevel each reflect that beam at the angle at which it has been ground (the angle of reflection will equal the angle of incidence). A 20 degree bevel will reflect to the 20 degree scale (from both sides). If the beveled edges are not the same the difference will be shown on the protractors scale...e.g. 20 degrees/ 19 degrees on the protractor's scale.This neat device works best in slightly subdued light in order to prevent false readings caused by bright ambient light also bouncing off the shiny edge.
If the knife is canted all th way to one side in the v-slots, lying flat on the sames sides back and front, when the laser is fired it will read you the sum of the two edge bevels on the protractor's scale. It is simplicity itself and a wonderful help when you don't know the edge angle on an unknown knife or to confirm the angles you have just developed.
I hope this helps to understand the basic use of the laser goniometer/protractor.

Leo

 

[Never Dull]

I concur with leomitch. I also have the angle cube and it has eliminated uneven bevels. I love it too. I have yet to get the laser protractor but will soon.

 

[db]

Another reason your bevels could be uneven has nothing really to do with the angles. If you grind on one side until a large burr forms you could be doing alot more grinding on one side than you should. This will move the edge past the center line. To prevent this from happening try to do close to equal amount of strokes on each side. I've found that switching sides every 50 or so strokes works well on really dull knives. You really could pick any number.

 

[whitefox]

Another reason your bevels could be uneven has nothing really to do with the angles. If you grind on one side until a large burr forms you could be doing alot more grinding on one side than you should. This will move the edge past the center line. To prevent this from happening try to do close to equal amount of strokes on each side. I've found that switching sides every 50 or so strokes works well on really dull knives. You really could pick any number.

I will give that a shot and see what happens. However when I started on this knife I went side by side just to see if i get a even edge grind and I didn't.

HOWEVER, I did something new tonight with this knife. Instead of having the brace rod hole facing in front of me, I had it facing towards my chest. So basically I flipped the vise around and I began to regrind the knife. On the left side of the edge grind, the edge bevel went down a little, but the right side edge grind went up. I can still see the old grind line on the left side, but now the edge grind on both side looks even. I remember some knives I sharpened a couple of months ago with the brace hole facing towards my chest, the grind came out even on each side.

I find this very strange. I am going to sharpen another knife tonight that has a factory edge, with the same set up of the brace hole facing towards me to see if I get a even grind on both sides.

 

[Ben Dover]

After examining your pictures, I believe that you would achieve more consistent results if you clamped the blade nearer to it's center.

 

[whitefox]

After examining your pictures, I believe that you would achieve more consistent results if you clamped the blade nearer to it's center.

I gave it a shot, and I did get some what of "even" edge on both sides.

Here is the left side of my USMC 7" (blade length) Kabar. 20 degree's on each side. Mark D. Bottom Key.

and now the right side. This picture doesn't justify with the whole "even edge" thing, due to the camera flash, but the "sweeps" on both sides, are almost the same. However, on the right side, it's just a tad bit long for the whole entire edge.

But I found out something, it doesn't matter where the knife is clamped at. Center in vise or whatever. However, with the blade being centered in the vise it is a little bit more better. Only because you use up more of the surface of the sharpening stones.

I discovered any blade that is centered in the vise, you can sharpen 5 inches of the edge WITH ONE STROKE and anything past 5 inches you have to sharpen the rest of the blade in sections. The reason why is because you run out of surface area for the stone. Now you might be able to do this Kabar in this picture with one stroke, but as you get to the point where the edge begins to sweep up, the stone no longer moves up and away from the edge. Instead the diamond stones slides along the surface of the edge to where it begins to sweep up to the point with this knife. Not up and away from the edge. The reason why this happens is because you eventually run out of surface area of the stone. Does it sharpen the edge where it begins to sweep up to the point? Yes it does, but at very slower rate, and the angle seems to be more wider. This only happens if you try to do an blade that is longer then 5 inches, mounted centered in the vise, and you are trying to do the edge in one stroke.

 

[singularity35]

Ouch! Thatsa some funky tip on that Ka-bar.

 

[whitefox]

Ouch! Thatsa some funky tip on that Ka-bar.

it looks bad, but it really isn't. it's was just the camera flash. i notice a knife with a "clipped point" or bowie shape can mess up the edge near the point when you sharpen it in the wicked edge.

 

[Minifcar]

Sorry this is so long...

Whitefox, I'm glad I'm not the only one. I've had the wicked edge for about a week and just noticed Thursday night the issue with the bevels. I think from your description it's exactly the same problem you're having. The right side of my blade has a steeper looking angle. There is more edge steel showing on the right side then the left. Drastically in some cases.

I really first noticed it sharpening my BM Infidel. Its a duel edge chisel grind. I sharpened one side to a 20 degree mirror finish (on the left side of my WEPS). It looked great. I couldn't do the other side cause I had to leave for work. When I got home I started to sharpen the remaining side. Everything was set correctly for a 20 degree angle. While sharpening I had difficulty removing the bur which was leaning toward the side I was sharpening. When I finally finished I noticed the HUGE difference in the bevel angle from the side I had sharpened earlier. It really looks bad (I'll try to post a pic later). I thought it was possibly from me trying to work off that bur.

Next I did a cold steel Spartan. When finished, the side sharpened on the left edge of the WEPS looked great. The right side again removed way more blade material and again it looks bad. I went back and looked at all the knives I'd done so far. My Strider PT, my BM Emissary, my leatherman Skeletool… all show the same problem. So then I started looking for inconsistencies with the WEPS.

I measured the distance of the degree markings on the angle bar from the base and found they were very slightly off. So I unscrewed the bar and pushed it in the direction it needed to go while screwing it back down. It actually came out just about perfectly. Next I set the angle guide rods to 20 degrees and then measured the distance of the guide rod base to the WEPS base. They were 1/16 of an inch off. So I decided to turn the guides around and use the flat side of the angle bar instead of the divot side as I believe the divots are not consistent. I now set the angle on one side then use a small ruler with a lockable t-square to measure it and set the other side equidistance from the base using the locked t-square.

I haven't gotten to try a factory edge on it since I've done this. I have a digital angle finder on order and I'm kind of waiting for that. I frankly don't want to risk another knife. The only one that looks ok is the BM Emissary. The Strider, Infidel, and Spartan all look bad and have too much blade material removed from one side. I'm afraid I just ruined a couple expensive blades!

Do you guys think this is a manufacturing issue with the WEPS itself?

 

[whitefox]

Sorry this is so long...

Whitefox, I'm glad I'm not the only one. I've had the wicked edge for about a week and just noticed Thursday night the issue with the bevels. I think from your description it's exactly the same problem you're having. The right side of my blade has a steeper looking angle. There is more edge steel showing on the right side then the left. Drastically in some cases.

I really first noticed it sharpening my BM Infidel. Its a duel edge chisel grind. I sharpened one side to a 20 degree mirror finish (on the left side of my WEPS). It looked great. I couldn't do the other side cause I had to leave for work. When I got home I started to sharpen the remaining side. Everything was set correctly for a 20 degree angle. While sharpening I had difficulty removing the bur which was leaning toward the side I was sharpening. When I finally finished I noticed the HUGE difference in the bevel angle from the side I had sharpened earlier. It really looks bad (I'll try to post a pic later). I thought it was possibly from me trying to work off that bur.

Next I did a cold steel Spartan. When finished, the side sharpened on the left edge of the WEPS looked great. The right side again removed way more blade material and again it looks bad. I went back and looked at all the knives I'd done so far. My Strider PT, my BM Emissary, my leatherman Skeletool… all show the same problem. So then I started looking for inconsistencies with the WEPS.

I measured the distance of the degree markings on the angle bar from the base and found they were very slightly off. So I unscrewed the bar and pushed it in the direction it needed to go while screwing it back down. It actually came out just about perfectly. Next I set the angle guide rods to 20 degrees and then measured the distance of the guide rod base to the WEPS base. They were 1/16 of an inch off. So I decided to turn the guides around and use the flat side of the angle bar instead of the divot side as I believe the divots are not consistent. I now set the angle on one side then use a small ruler with a lockable t-square to measure it and set the other side equidistance from the base using the locked t-square.

I haven't gotten to try a factory edge on it since I've done this. I have a digital angle finder on order and I'm kind of waiting for that. I frankly don't want to risk another knife. The only one that looks ok is the BM Emissary. The Strider, Infidel, and Spartan all look bad and have too much blade material removed from one side. I'm afraid I just ruined a couple expensive blades!

Do you guys think this is a manufacturing issue with the WEPS itself?

I know how you feel. I did some knives on the wicked edge that are no longer being made. A Ontario Quartermaster. A schrade Trail of Tears. Both of those have one edge slightly higher then the other. I am going have to get a angle cube whenever I have some extra money to get a accurate reading and figure out if it's actually the base rod giving me false measurements or if there is actually more metal on one side of the knife.

Currently I am to afraid to use my Wicked Edge till I figure out a accurate reading. I will keep updating this thread with my findings. One thing I remember the most when using the Wicked Edge was that there was also one side that would take me the longest, and that was the side with the higher edge.

 

[Lagrangian]

If you are feeling ambitious, you can make your own laser-goniometer. Prof. John D. Verhoeven made one with a laser-pointer and talks about it in his technical report on knife sharpening. See Appendix 1.

http://www-archive.mse.iastate.edu/...te.edu/static/files/verhoeven/KnifeShExps.pdf

I'm tempted to make one myself with a laser-pointer and an empty roll of duct-tape!

 

[Burke]

Have any of you guys tried emailing Wicked Edge? Seems like you might get an "Oh yeah, lots of knives are ground a little off, that's normal" response or "Oops, we had a batch go out that wasn't aligned right, we'll replace it." Either way, it could put your mind at ease without making more steel dust.