Is KNIFE damascus different from GUN damascus?

Sorry not to have followed up with details of the question. Just got back from short vacation.
I used "rust" instead of "oxidation" as I was speaking of the context of the articles I had read and because iron oxidation is rust.
I was aware of the difference of the mandrel wrapping of the old shotguns, but the explanations I have read states that where the wraps touch and also where the coils touch, oxidation MAY weaken the bond at any place...or...no place. But with a shotgun, the old adage to not fire them is to cover all the bases and just save a couple fingers ...IF... one of the bonds releases.
While on vacation in SoCal this past week, I asked a knife maker in the town where our friends we stayed with reside.
HIS....opinion is that he would not use damascus for a knife that may get really rough ....bending.... or.....prying....use and in general tries to convince his customers that it is a real pretty .....artistic.....touch and is just fine and beautiful as such.
BUT....if they are going to whack nails or stumps or really beat the hell out of it, to stick with the solid stock just for the uniformity of the internal structure of the steel.
Not contradicting previous replies.....just adding another 2 bits of info (opinion).
I think it looks neat but have never had one.

And I would think from the antique damascus blades I have seen that in a flat piece of ....cutting.... instrument (as opposed to an explosion container) it would be just fine for several hundred years.

But whatta we gonna do if it lets go when you need it for a jack handle in 2437? WHO will handle the warranty?

heh

:D
 
Larrin said:
The reason most damascus is stronger is because one of the two steels is often nickel or a high-nickel alloy because of how bright nickel is when etched. Nickel is very strong, so when going through the length of the blade, it obviously adds strength. This makes damascus very strong.
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My understanding is that nickel is soft and adds toughness to steel, not strength.
 
Tests done tell us that gun barrels made with Damascus are stronger in the same form as monosteels, but early guns, made before modern gunpowers blew up, thus giving Damascus a bad name...
 
My father has a W.C. Scott and Sons Bogardus side by side shotgun with damascus barrels and hammers. A beautiful gun. It is over 100 years old and still going strong....so there must be something good about damascus steel.:D
 
Lavan said:
I have always been told (and read) that damascus begins rusting the moment it is made. Supposedly it rusts where it twists and if it is also welded, rusts there too.
This is the supposed reason why it is considered unsafe to use any of the old shotguns made of damascus methods around the turn of the 20th century or earlier. They say the twists and welds will give way and let go (or possibly NOT) when fired after these many years.
Will KNIFE damascus do the same in a hundred years? Not that I'll care ...then..... but I'm curious NOW. Is there gonna be a buncha busted off knives from the toll of rust?

:confused:
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In a nut shell, from a process point the two are one in the same. Now the whole reason that Damascus twist shotgun barrels are considered "weak' is not because of their welded construction it's because of the transistion from low pressure black powder to high pressure smokeless powder.

Because of the wide variance in the manufacture (welding) process it's impossible to certify the barrels as "smokeless" safe. The new one piece barrels were far more consistant and made of much better ordinance grade steel which could safely handle the smokless pressures.


Now if the weld is of poor quality such as lots of inclusions, slag or the temp was wrong then you get whats called De-lamination. You see this a lot in low quality damascus such as what comes from Pakistan, India and China. This may be what your refering to.

It's almost never seen in high quality stuff. In fact most if not all high end makers would rather scrap the blade than risk their reputation.

Japanese blades are welded and there are examples hundreds of years old that still look new and are ready to be put to work. So as long as the welding was done well to begain with and the blade is taken care of you have no worries nor will your grand children nor theirs ;)


Bors
 
Lets also remember "real" Damascus or "Wootz steel" has not been made in hundreds of years. My point is there are no modern firearms that were even made from True "Damascus", so the argument is really pointless. The few real Wootz steel barrels and Blades that around are worth so much money that I doubt there will be to many tests to find out what is strongest. The art to making Wootz steel (real Damascus) died out in 1700AD and is not even fully understood on how it was made. Many smiths still argue on this point and have their own methods they think was used by the master smiths a thousand years ago. Yes, some of today's Damascus is most likely just as tough as the original (maybe not). Anyway, the alloys/steels being made in labs today, make all past metals look like balsa wood. I can image what will be available in a few years for Blades and firearms.
Just a view
Have a great day
 
Sysop said:
Lets also remember "real" Damascus or "Wootz steel" has not been made in hundreds of years. My point is there are no modern firearms that were even made from True "Damascus", so the argument is really pointless. The few real Wootz steel barrels and Blades that around are worth so much money that I doubt there will be to many tests to find out what is strongest. The art to making Wootz steel (real Damascus) died out in 1700AD and is not even fully understood on how it was made. Many smiths still argue on this point and have their own methods they think was used by the master smiths a thousand years ago. Yes, some of today's Damascus is most likely just as tough as the original (maybe not). Anyway, the alloys/steels being made in labs today, make all past metals look like balsa wood. I can image what will be available in a few years for Blades and firearms.
Just a view
Have a great day
Click to expand...



Of coarse. Wootz, (whats believed to be true damascus) is not welded so it's not pointless. Patern (layered) Welded steel barrels are not suited for smokeless powder plain and simple. I doubt that anyone now or then could make wootz barrels since the process (modern interpretation) is compleatly different.

Unfortunatly the term "Damascus" is pretty deep rooted as applied to welded steel and not everyone is aware of the difference.


Bors
 
A number of damascus barrel black powder shotguns were "reproofed" for smokeless shells. But even the nitro proofed monolithic barrelled guns from the late 1800's have two issues. First, they were never intended to shoot "turkey" loads. You can shoot low brass target or field loads fine. That is the kind of shooting most of those guns were made for anyway. The second problem is that many English guns made back in the late 1800's and on into the early part of the 20th century were made to fire 2 1/2 inch shells. Some older guns have been modified but many haven't been. Firing hotter shells will require liners, but you will never be able to fire 3 inch shells from an old gun. There just isn't enough meat around the breech to stretch the chamber. Pick up an old gun and feel how light it is out front compared to a newer gun. That also precludes the use of choke tubes:D
 
There was an article in Guns and Ammo from 1991 or 1992 that explored the stereo-type that damascus barrelled shotguns were inherently weak and dangerous to use.

IIRC, the author explained that cheap English shotguns with damascus barrels were being imported into the U.S. in the late 1800s. These cheap shotguns didnt have "proof" marks so it was a crap-shoot if the cheap English shotgun purchased was sufficiently strong. Enough failed under normal use to give damascus a bad name.

There were many well made damascus shotguns imported to the U.S. and I believe the author (Russ Seyfried, I think) said that a "proofed" damascus shotgun could safely be fired with normal (non-magnum) loads.
 
severtecher said:
I have been a knife collector for quite some time now and like to think myself something of an expert in the field. I am also interested in guns. I find the primary difference between knife damascus and firearm damascus is that the firearm stuff has a long hole drilled in it. The knife stuff ,you will find, is usually much flatter. I'm so glad I can use my ex-spurt-tease to help those less knowledgable. :D
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gun - long hole, knife much flatter. now I understand!:D ;)
 
I am pretty sure that the name or 'term' Damascus steel most always refers to steels having a visible pattern on the surface of the steel and not necessarily the way the pattern got there.

I know of two different procedures for making Damascus. Both have already been discussed here, pattern welding and the Wootz. As was stated earlier pattern welding is when two or more different types of steel are forge welded together and then the layers are folded several times which mulitplies them. Sometimes the layers are then manipulated a bit further to get different patterns. To do this does not necessarily require flat bar stock; as wire, round stock, bar or square bars can just as easily be used.

Wootz is a different technique where the steel is formed by melting in a pot or crucible. Then carbon is added. There are many variances here with temerature and time factors coming into play as well forging to form the final piece that produces the bars for steel.

What I have not seen mentioned here is the 'Mosaic Damascus.' This is interesting because as I understand it there can be additional twists to making this type. Imagine using two bars of already designed damascus or even three bars, sticks or squares and then cutting out smaller sections or bars of those that already have a pattern of two or more steels in them and are pretty much ready to use as they are. The maker takes these and forge welds those together with another section of steel in a different pattern and then you have multi steel, multi patterned looks that are very unique and visually appealing. I think the term is commonly referred to as 'parent materials' being joined together. But I'm going from memory there, just seems I read that somewhere.

I would imagine that with modern machining any number of variances could occur using one or more patterned steels cut out in square stock to use for barrels and then machined and sleeved leaving a visually stunning pattern on the surface. My everyday carry pistol is a S&W Airlite titanium made from machined aluminum sleeved in stainless steel so I'm sure if they can do that for this that doing it for a damascus steel would be no different. The difference in the older vs the newer is the pressures the new ammo reaches. 45 Long Colt and the 45-70 rifle are both no different in that they are lower pressure older ammo used in yesteryear. Compared to the new 44 Mag, and 450 Marlin ammo they are way behind in performance, that is why you have to buy only a newer 45 Long Colt like the S&W mountain gun to use if you hand load your own higher pressure rounds in that caliber. If you tried to shoot one of those homegrown rounds in an old original Colt 45 you'd be in for a nasty rude awakening. If you were to try to shoot one of the Marlin 450 rounds out of an old 45-70 you'd blow up the barrel and probably kill yourself in the process. Same thing goes for a shotgun out of the old Damascus steel if you go to using newer high brass higher pressure rounds of ammo in it. It might not blow the first or even the tenth time. But it can form rising bubbles on the barrels. I have one of these older shotguns I got from my father's estate. Once you see one of those bubbles forming on the barrel its time to retire the gun or have it sleeved.

STR
 
There seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread when the words "steel with nickle added" are used. I think it would help the conversation if folks were careful to differentiate between nickel bearing alloys 15n20, 203E, L6 etc... and just adding nickel to the billet. mete has it when he says that nickel alloys like L6 add both strength and toughness. If you want just toughness and no strength, dump anything in there that lowers the overall carbon level of the billet.

This is not a simple topic, many features would be no different from the parent steels since it is after all just steel not magic. But the process does introduce some changes in some charactistics. Patterns can effect some properties. The fact that very little testing has been done out there is eveident in the shock and puzzlement my test results are often received with. Nobody likes to hear thier favorite mix is not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Corrosion should be no different than any other steel if the maker was smart enough to totally neutralize his etch. Weld seams parallel to applied force are weaker than those running perpendicular, but that should be a no brainer.
 
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