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I didnt say it was unbelievable. It is however rather uncommon.
Oh and I sent you a PM
-
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Is S30V still considered a premium steel at HRC 56-58 in production knives?
- Thread starter cotdt
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I didnt say it was unbelievable. It is however rather uncommon.
Oh and I sent you a PM
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I guess a few quick questions are in order...
1) Has the OP contacted Chris Reeve Knives to confirm what the justification in the heat treat was. Considering this is one of the highest quality knifemakers out there, there's probably an excellent reason.
2) How experienced is the OP with knives, primarily with "super steels" and sharpening the more complex steels? I, for one, have pretty pathetic sharpening skills, and would be very happy with S30V at the lower hardness - actually I might prefer it for the ease of sharpening. Even at 55-57 HRC, it ain't going to be a slouch in the edge retention department.
1) Has the OP contacted Chris Reeve Knives to confirm what the justification in the heat treat was. Considering this is one of the highest quality knifemakers out there, there's probably an excellent reason.
2) How experienced is the OP with knives, primarily with "super steels" and sharpening the more complex steels? I, for one, have pretty pathetic sharpening skills, and would be very happy with S30V at the lower hardness - actually I might prefer it for the ease of sharpening. Even at 55-57 HRC, it ain't going to be a slouch in the edge retention department.
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Dude how do your toes taste? :foot:
He didn't demean kershaw in any way. He just stated he tested the steel and got a hardness and re-heat treated the blade to be harder.
That is the problem with fan boys is they are too quick to jump the gun and stand up for their beloved product.
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I can just see a green beret saying to his buddies, "Hey guys, wait up! I just gotta re-profile my knife to optimize cutting performance."
TC
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The rockwell scale is logarithmic, a few points make a big difference.
A2 retains quite a bit of austenite due to the alloying, and can achieve secondary hardening and responds to cold/cryo treatment. heat treat of it is not totally straightforward. I don't know why CRK treats it to a toughness trough on the one-piece line, the knives should be both tougher and more wear resistant with some extra hardness, according to books and articles on the steel.
A2 retains quite a bit of austenite due to the alloying, and can achieve secondary hardening and responds to cold/cryo treatment. heat treat of it is not totally straightforward. I don't know why CRK treats it to a toughness trough on the one-piece line, the knives should be both tougher and more wear resistant with some extra hardness, according to books and articles on the steel.
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I can provide a few quick answers...
You don't need OP contacting CRK for that. It's all here on BF. Just search CRK forums, there were several long debates about low hardness of S30V in their products, including Sebenzas. CRK insisted it is easier to sharpen somehow better.
That would mean CRK makes knives for inexperienced sharpeners and I doubt that's the image they want to convey.
For one, it's not always easier to sharpen softer steel. Second, with soft steel you have to sharpen more often, so you will become more efficient pretty quickly
I have 2 S30V blades, at 60 and 61 HRC. Neither one of them is something that I'd consider a problem sharpening. Nothing compared to the levels of difficulty with CPM 10V, 125V, 110V or ZDP-189. And those aren't that bad either, I mean the reputation they have is worse than reality.
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+1:thumbup: Can't for the life of me see how J_Curd arrived at the conclusion he did about what Harry stated.
Regards,
3G
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+1:thumbup: The Spydercos, BladeTechs, and Bucks I own in S30V have been just as easy to sharpen as my Sebenza. The only manufacturer whose S30V I've had a more difficult time sharpening is Benchmade for some reason.
Regards,
3G
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By tempering the blade down, it gains toughness. The trade off is between toughness and hardness. Toughness makes the blade resist chipping and breaking. Hardness makes the blade resist dulling. There is no right or wrong. There are only compromises and tradeoffs. I prefer to err on the side of toughness. It is easy to sharpen a blade. It isn't so easy to fix a snapped tip.
My S30V kitchen knife is hardened to 56-57 and I wouldn't want it any harder. Personally, I view RC 59-60 as the limit I want in hardness even for a small pocket knife. I think blades made from most steels get too brittle above that. I have some snapped blade tips and chipped edges to back that up. As an example, I have no use for ZDP-189 personally. Too hard and brittle for me. For some people it is dandy. It depends on the application.
The blade hardness battle reminds me a little of the wattage battle among hi fi amplifiers in the 1960's and 1970's. People in those days believed that amplifier power was a measure of quality. Today knife knuts think hardness is a measure of quality. Actually they are measures of something else completely unrelated to quality. Most amplifiers are overpowered today just like most expensive knives are over hardened - at least for me.
My S30V kitchen knife is hardened to 56-57 and I wouldn't want it any harder. Personally, I view RC 59-60 as the limit I want in hardness even for a small pocket knife. I think blades made from most steels get too brittle above that. I have some snapped blade tips and chipped edges to back that up. As an example, I have no use for ZDP-189 personally. Too hard and brittle for me. For some people it is dandy. It depends on the application.
The blade hardness battle reminds me a little of the wattage battle among hi fi amplifiers in the 1960's and 1970's. People in those days believed that amplifier power was a measure of quality. Today knife knuts think hardness is a measure of quality. Actually they are measures of something else completely unrelated to quality. Most amplifiers are overpowered today just like most expensive knives are over hardened - at least for me.
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I agree with most of this. Ive found in my own use that 59rc is basically my own sweet spot. At that hardness I get the best mix of attributes that work best for me, most of the time. I dont think that a softer blade is necessarily easier to sharpen then one hardened to a higher RC, once I got the technique down I liked the way that harder steels like ZDP took a nice crisp edge (Ive read that it has to do with the way that the steel forms a bur or something like that).
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Well i have seen a picture about the relation from toughness to hardness on a varity of steel grades. I can´t post it nor can i link it. Sadly.
Considering steel grades like M2 or D2, 154CM you may generally say, that the gain in toughness is very minor, compared to steel grades, that are "tough".
If hardness is dropped down to HRC56 just to get it as tough as a simple carbon at HRC 60 is a waste of steel IMO. Most steel grades benefit from the higher hardness. HRC 60 is pretty right for me.
Considering steel grades like M2 or D2, 154CM you may generally say, that the gain in toughness is very minor, compared to steel grades, that are "tough".
If hardness is dropped down to HRC56 just to get it as tough as a simple carbon at HRC 60 is a waste of steel IMO. Most steel grades benefit from the higher hardness. HRC 60 is pretty right for me.
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S30V is one of my favorites, my Spyderco military and para hold a good edge, as well does my Striders...
Strider's RC is 59.5-60
Does anyone know what Spyderco's is for S30V?
Strider's RC is 59.5-60
Does anyone know what Spyderco's is for S30V?
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True in general, but there isn't always a trade-off between hardness and toughness. A2, for example, is tougher at hrc 60 than hrc 57. Every steel has a maximum toughness at different points on the hardness scale.
As for S30V, the brittleness was due to heat-treating issues not making it too hard. Makers often had it hardened to only hrc 57, but there was a lot of retained austenite in the blade, which over time converted to untempered martensite which is really brittle. Unprecise equipment also led to grain growth which could also make the blade less tough.
I'm using S30V blade at hrc 61 right now and it's not brittle at all. Phil Wilson recommended the 60-61 range as optimal for this steel. If you make the steel too soft, then the steel would yield earlier and you get denting and rolling. For my purposes, edges actually hold up better at higher 60+ hardnesses.
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I can understand wanting a tougher knife for many applications. But in the kitchen? All I want in a kitchen knife is a very thin edge and good edge retention. I can't picture a scenario where I'd chip or break a knife during kitchen duty (except for meat-cleaving).
For the record, my kitchen knives are CPM 154 ht'd by Paul Bos to 60-61 HRc. My roommate's knife is CPM 3V, also treated by Bos to 60-61. He's not gentle with it (at all), and there have been no issues with chipping. None of these knives are hard to sharpen, either.
Phillip Dobson
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My thoughts exactly. However, keep in mind that your knives were heat treated by a heat treating expert. I've come across a lot of knives in 154CM that were extremely brittle, where the edge would chip while I was sharpening it, never mind everyday tasks. S30V had the same issue when it first came out, and I have a Bos heat treated S30V at 60-61 that has no chipping issues.