Is the AXIS LOCK Unsuitable for SD use?

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OrangeJoe

Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
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From reading the fora here on BF I had come to the belief that the Axis lock knives were not suitable for SD/MBC. Yes you read that sentence correctly, dear fellow forumite, I've never even held an Axis lock knife.

I recently commented on this on another thread and the concensus seemed to be that this was wrong. I did not get 'flamed' but the temp did rise a few degrees in my office.

In the threads I've read where the Axis is deemed the lesser lock when choosing a SD knife there did not seemed to be such disagreement.

Is this a belief held only in the Prac/Tac forum?

Is this a belief held only by some in the Prac/Tac forum?

Do they know better?

What do you 'General Discussion Forumites' think?
 
Is a folder less suitable than a fixed blade? That's a different question. But among folders, I do not know why an axis would be any less suitable. If anything, I can deploy my axis blade much faster than most of my lockbacks. But I don't find the axis any more likely to disengage. YMMV.

Verb
 
In a SD situation, with a folder, I would prefer one of my AXIS locks.

1. Quick to deploy
2. Confidence in the strength and reliability of the lock
3. No fear of accidental disengagement
 
Axis lock is awesome. i just wish they made the locking bars (the part where you pull back on) protrude out a margin more, so the grip on the bars would be better. That is of course, my opinion of it.
 
The further the bar protrudes, the more likely it is to get hit during a fight and moved back (unlocked) --THAT'S the problem with an axis for self-defense. Think of the Spyderco ball-lock for the same mechanism but inaccessible to accidental-on-purpose inerference.
 
OrangeJoe said:
From reading the fora here on BF I had come to the belief that the Axis lock knives were not suitable for SD/MBC. Yes you read that sentence correctly, dear fellow forumite, I've never even held an Axis lock knife.

I recently commented on this on another thread and the concensus seemed to be that this was wrong. I did not get 'flamed' but the temp did rise a few degrees in my office.

In the threads I've read where the Axis is deemed the lesser lock when choosing a SD knife there did not seemed to be such disagreement.

Is this a belief held only in the Prac/Tac forum?

Is this a belief held only by some in the Prac/Tac forum?

Do they know better?

What do you 'General Discussion Forumites' think?
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this is just ridiculous. Whether it be an axis lock or a lock back or a liner lock, as long as its a quality folder from a trusted company you will have no problem stabbing/slicing flesh. So if you are really wanting a blade for self defense look at the blade shape and style but the lock should be of little concern, its just personal preference.
 
I agree give me my Rossi .357 or my Colt CCO any day for s.d. applications. But if I ain't got'em in hand then I would think my CRKT Falcon, or anyone of my EKI's or MOD's would more than suffice. keepem sharp
 
There is no perfect knife - IMO the concern about the locking bar is stuff for cybertalk only, with no real practical translation on the ground.
 
The Axis lock is a great design, not a big fan of that style for SD. For SD I prefer a traditional liner lock style blade with a lightweight handle. Zytel or CF.

The funny thing is all the knives that these companies push as being "military" knives and "Special Forces" and "SEAL issue". All nonsense. I spent time at sea with guys in Force Recon and SEAL units and they all carry inexpensive import fixed blades and Benchmade or Spyderco folders at best. The idea being is your going to lose or destroy most knives anyhow. Knives are used for prying and chopping not to mention your going to drop them on concrete or stone or even a steel deck. Who in their right mind would spend hundreds of dollars for some of the knives you see advertised only to take it into combat where again, it will get lost or damaged. A $50.00 fixed blade will kill someone, cut rope or pry open a door just as easily as a $400.00 version and if you lose it?, no big deal.

The same with folders, Do you know how easy it is to lose knife? Or even have it confiscated. I won't carry a knife worth more then $100.00. Total waste. Knowing how to use a knife is what counts. Having a $500.00 knife or a $50.00 knife is the same in the right hands.
 
JNewell said:
There is no perfect knife - IMO the concern about the locking bar is stuff for cybertalk only, with no real practical translation on the ground.
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Agree. Don't think there's any forum, not PracTac or anywhere else, that I've been to that believes the Axis is unsuitable for SD... in fact, most believe it's one of the best due to its reliability.
 
jarlaxle said:
this is just ridiculous. Whether it be an axis lock or a lock back or a liner lock, as long as its a quality folder from a trusted company you will have no problem stabbing/slicing flesh. So if you are really wanting a blade for self defense look at the blade shape and style but the lock should be of little concern, its just personal preference.
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jarlaxle,

Your posts appears to be spouting a 'personal preference' while Esav Benyamin's seems to point to facts or at least personal experience which is replicated by more than one MBC trainer n these forums.

Anyone care to address Mr. Benyamin's concerns directly?
 
Mr. Benyamin didn't really say he felt the axis unsuitable. I, like many, have seen liners fail far more than other locks. I've heard them make noise and loosen when I've white knuckled them. I've heard people say thier lockback failed them, and have disengaged one myself due to pressure on the lock resulting in a cut. I have never heard of or personally experienced an instance in reality were an axis failed by someone accidentaly releasing it other than one time by Mercop over in the parc-tac area. I'm sure it actually happened, but the frequency in comparrison to these other locks is next to nothing.
Also, I've never heard of a frame lock closing on someone. I have heard people say they worry about them because you can twist them and if they're stuck in something, they can close. That, to me, is similar to the argument that you could accidentily unlock an axis. -Possible but not likely, and in comparisson to other locks, worth that chance.
And this all, to me, relates to any heavy usage of the knife, not just for self-defense.
 
mmarkh said:
Overall I think knives are a poor choice for self defense.
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mmakh, I value your contribution to this thread. That said:

1. Poor choice vs what?!

2. A firearms/cqb/edge weapons expert like Michael Janich says that the WORSE situation you can find yourself on the street is unarmed against an Edged Weapon. Not unarmed against a semi auto pistol wielding assailant nor unarmed against various unarmed oponents. Apparently he disagrees with you.

3. I think trainning Programs like DIE LESS OFTEN make the point better than I ever could. Remember this is a course for trained firearms users to defend against punks with at best 'street smart' knife technics. And the best for hoped for result is the name of the course!

mmarkh said:
Overall I think knives are a poor choice for self defense.
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I propose the opposite is true. Overall knives are a good choice for Self Defense. Then comes the exception: unless you have $500 + for a quality firearm AND training AND can obtain a CCW license AND can carry a pound of steel around all day, everyday. In which case a sidearm is overall a good choice for SD.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
The further the bar protrudes, the more likely it is to get hit during a fight and moved back (unlocked) --THAT'S the problem with an axis for self-defense. Think of the Spyderco ball-lock for the same mechanism but inaccessible to accidental-on-purpose inerference.
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This is the only complaint I've read about or heard of regarding Axis lock knives for SD. The complaint is that the lock isn't guarded by your hand when gripping it. The majority of folders use locks that are encompassed when held (i.e. frame lock, liner lock, back lock, etc.) so the belief is they can't be disengaged by the other person in a scuffle or be released with pressure exerted against clothing or the body. They can be disengaged by the user accidentally though. Personally, I believe a quality knife with a lock you've tested and feel comfortable with along with proper training is your best bet if it comes down to that. I'd have no qualms using an Axis lock in a SD capacity but then again I'd use anything and everything at my disposal to save my families lives or my own.
 
OrangeJoe said:
Your posts appears to be spouting a 'personal preference' while Esav Benyamin's seems to point to facts or at least personal experience which is replicated by more than one MBC trainer n these forums.
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The practical concerns were already addressed in the previous thread "one self defense folder", by our lock evaluator Joe Talmadge and others.

The axis lock has some theoretical problems, but current evidence demonstrates that none of the problems actually appear to any consistent extent in the real world. The axis design is very K.I.S.S., and as it is simple a simple bar in a slot over a tang, it performs well even with loose tolerances. A small physical translation or rotation, in the order of magnitude of 1/10 of a millimeter, would not cause an axis lock to fail to any consistent degree.

On the other hand, the linerlock is an example of a lock requiring very exact tolerances, and a very high-quality implementation have to be done for liner locks to be secure. Even minor imperfections on the surface contacting the tang can cause the lock to stick, and decrease the surface area by which contact is achieved. Making a linerlock warp or twist is also much easier than doing so to an axis lock.

After all is said and done, I don't think there is much evidence to axis failing in real-life use of knives.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
Agree. Don't think there's any forum, not PracTac or anywhere else, that I've been to that believes the Axis is unsuitable for SD... in fact, most believe it's one of the best due to its reliability.
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I don't think anyone is trying to present the Axis as generally unreliable .

My OP refers to that specific use, SD. I actually have not read the thread where Mercop has an Axis close on him, but I've read him more than once disqualify the Axis as an option in the SD knife menu. Again as this has been -in my experience- taken as casually as if he'd said his favorite color was green, I took it to mean there was a consensus on that matter.

Such broad statements are usually not taken at face value in this community and the fact that no one came forward to defend the Axis nor to comment on their contrasting experience spoke volumes at the (multiple) time this came up.

Anyone else has trained for MBC with an Axis?

Good or bad experience? Did the Axis 'Blink' under those high G's?
 
OrangeJoe said:
1. Poor choice vs what?!
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Firearms? OC spray?

OrangeJoe said:
2. A firearms/cqb/edge weapons expert like Michael Janich says that the WORSE situation you can find yourself on the street is unarmed against an Edged Weapon. Not unarmed against a semi auto pistol wielding assailant nor unarmed against various unarmed oponents. Apparently he disagrees with you.
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And his reasoning? Without giving us reasoning how do we know you are not misquoting him? "But Expert X said..." is a poor way to argue any topic. Besides, that quote only implied that a knife is dangerous in assault; it doesn't at all prove it's effective in defense.

OrangeJoe said:
I propose the opposite is true. Overall knives are a good choice for Self Defense.
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And what exactly does this "proposal" do? As most will agree, self-defense is primarily situational awareness, evasion and avoidance, and training. What tool you carry comes last. And so, barring minor technical disputes, people who are informed about self-defense can already make their own decisions as to what to carry. Making such a "proposal" only tells the uninformed that "if you carry a knife all will be ok!", which is blatantly dangerous.
 
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