Is the AXIS LOCK Unsuitable for SD use?

[allenC]

Here's my opinion....

The Axis-lock is an excellent lock for self-defense.
It's certainly better than a liner-lock or frame-lock (except perhaps the ones with the LAWKs feature).
In my experience, liner-locks and frame-locks are more affected by twisting and spine-whacks than the Axis-lock or the lock-back.

 

[znode]

I actually have not read the thread where Mercop has an Axis close on him

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, not jabbing holes.

Your entire argument as of yet seems to be "Experts A, B, C, and D does not personally carry an axis." So what? Give us a proven mechanism of failure, mechanical or human-induced. Give us proven weaknesses in the design (we have just one so far, that the lock is not directly guarded by a closed grip.) Give us demonstrations of lock failure across multiple axis knives. If expert A discredits the axis, tell us what their reasoning was or link to it.

Don't sit there demanding defense; you're the one who has the burden of proof.

 

[Active Verb]

There is some risk of any folder having the lock disengage, irrespective of whether the use is opening packages, cutting fruit or defending oneself. That risk should manifest itself with all lock types, including the axis, in all scenarios. Yet, we are talking with no hard data, based on isolated anecdotes. And in general, most axis lock owners, myself included, own folders with other lock types and would not, based upon our experience, claim that axis locks were more likely to disengage than other folders. Some axis owners have expressed the opposite point of view. The absolute incidence of disengagement, as opposed to the relative risk among lock types, is pretty low to start with. We are arguing 1 in 10 million risk of disengagement vs. 1 in 5 million as opposed to one in 10 vs. one in one hundred. Some perspective is called for, I should think.

Verb

 

[hardheart]

The problem with the axis is that it might be disengaged through incidental contact. The problem with other locks is that they might be disengaged by the wielder's grip. The problem with knives for SD is that there are schools teaching people how to take them away from you.

You also don't defend with a knife like a shield, you attack with it, which will then incapacitate. You need to incapacitate the BG before he kills you, you do not get bonus points for how fast you draw, or how keenly you swing. It doesn't count until the BG stops. You need to know how to do it, be willing to do it, and not end up better off dead for having done it.

 

[Active Verb]

The problem with the axis is that it might be disengaged through incidental contact.

Is that risk greater for an axis lock than a liner lock in your view, based upon your experience? Not questioning, just asking. FWIW, my experience goes the other way.

 

[znode]

And in general, most axis lock owners, myself included, own folders with other lock types and would not, based upon our experience, claim that axis locks were more likely to disengage than other folders.

That sentence structure needs to be taken out and shot

We are arguing 1 in 10 million risk of disengagement vs. 1 in 5 million as opposed to one in 10 vs. one in one hundred.

The risk is not THAT low. 1 in 5 million would mean one failure in 6800 years assuming 2 cycles a day. How many [Spyderco/Benchmade/Kershaw] are produced a year? I doubt it's 5 million, and there's bound to be a handful of bad ones eventually. Maybe 1 in several thousand is a more reasonable estimate?

 

[Active Verb]

The risk is not THAT low. 1 in 5 million would mean one failure in 6800 years assuming 2 cycles a day. How many [Spyderco/Benchmade/Kershaw] are produced a year? I doubt it's 5 million, and there's bound to be a handful of bad ones eventually. Maybe 1 in several thousand is a more reasonable estimate?

My edc is used multiple times per day over the # of years I own it. Everytime I use it, for self-defense or anything else, there is a risk of the lock disengaging. Every time I drive my car, there is a risk the CV joint may split from the axile and I could lose control of steering. etc. Risk is inherent. It cannot be eliminated if you want to carry a folder. It can only be managed.

 

[hardheart]

Is that risk greater for an axis lock than a liner lock in your view, based upon your experience? Not questioning, just asking. FWIW, my experience goes the other way.

No, I actually don't know what would do it, but that seems to be the idea behind the argument. I figure it's about as likely as breaking my wrist in a fight. If it happens, it'll be due to my own stupidity, not nature's design. BM hasn't had as much time in R&D , but my bones aren't made of stainless. And in either case, I'd worry about something else first, like my pinky, or the edge/tip, which are astoundingly thin and exposed compared to the lockbar.

I have never had an axis lock fail under any use or test, out of seven owned. Never released a lockback accidentally, either. I have had liner and frame locks fail spinewhacks. I ended my moratorium on buying them to try out a different steel-the framelock failed spinewhacks, I fixed it with some sanding on the lock surfaces, I broke the blade cutting nails for some other silliness. My edc rotation now is an axis and two lockbacks.

 

[SIFU1A]

back whjen cris carraci (the designer of the BM AFCK, navy SEAL and a H2H instructor FWIW) posted here he said he thought the axis AFCK was not suitable for SD because the buttons protruding made it prone to accidental release in certain situations(ie when the knife twists in your hand, for one), and said he preffered the old 800 to the new axis AFCK for this reason, for SD anyway, he also said to solve this all ya had to do was grind the buttons down flush with or a little below the scales & then it was fine for SD in his opinion.

do i agree with chris?? i dont know, i suppose there is a chance of it releasing, maybe, if i was gonna use a axis for SD i might would grind the buttons down as chris suggested.

no one ever said the lock wasnt strong enough, it was the chance of accidental dis-engagement that folks were worried about.

better safe than sorry imho.

 

[stonyman]

:thumbup: Axis lock, if down to a folder is a good for sd.

 

[jarlaxle]

jarlaxle,

Your posts appears to be spouting a 'personal preference' while Esav Benyamin's seems to point to facts or at least personal experience which is replicated by more than one MBC trainer n these forums.

Anyone care to address Mr. Benyamin's concerns directly?

Spouting personal preference?? I've owned and handled axis, liner, and lockback folding knives of quality build. And in my personal experience i would feel conifident in any of the locks for SD.

Whoever was saying this is a BS conversation for the Cyberworld and has no practical application is right on.:thumbup:

 

[cutter17]

I'm commenting without having read so I may be repeating what already has been said. The one thing I have read concerning the suitability of the Axis Lock for self defense seemed to center around the length of the axis bar and how it may get caught on something and accidently disengage it. I looked at several of the BM's that used this lock, including the only Axis Lock I have, a 610 Rukus, which is in my edc rotation btw, and came to the conclusion that it could conceivably occur, remote, but could nevertheless. My solution to the 610 Rukus I have, was to reduce the length of the axis bar. Took it apart and using a grinding wheel on a dremel tool I have I shortened the bar and made it flush with the opening. I satin finished the flats of the bar and then went all the way and satin finished the edges of the liners and also added a set of the ivory micarta grips that I also polished.............but this is another story. I will say that it looks to me like someone is going to have to stick something into the axis bar slot to cause it to unlock accidently and I just don't see how that is going to happen.............unless of course Mr. Murphy makes an appearance, but then even the fixed blade will probably end of folding!

 

[OrangeJoe]

Is this thing on! *thud*thud*thud* (OJ taps Cyberworld microphone) Does anybody hear me!

From reading the fora here on BF I had come to the belief that the Axis lock knives were not suitable for SD/MBC. Yes you read that sentence correctly, dear fellow forumite, I've never even held an Axis lock knife.

I recently commented on this on another thread and the concensus seemed to be that this was wrong. I did not get 'flamed' but the temp did rise a few degrees in my office.

In the threads I've read where the Axis is deemed the lesser lock when choosing a SD knife there did not seemed to be such disagreement.

Is this a belief held only in the Prac/Tac forum?

Is this a belief held only by some in the Prac/Tac forum?

Do they know better?

What do you 'General Discussion Forumites' think?

That seemed a reasonable Post at the time, still does.

Since I have neither the time nor the inclination (nor to be frank, the time and cash) to try out every locking system out there, I presented the OP with all facts.

Axis, I've never tried it, have heard some BF folks -who I believe to be reasonable profesional that deal with and use a knife everyday with a SD or Martial mindset- outright dissmiss it as a SD folder choice. I asked for opinions.

Simple enough.

Spouting personal preference?? I've owned and handled axis, liner, and lockback folding knives of quality build. And in my personal experience i would feel conifident in any of the locks for SD.

Whoever was saying this is a BS conversation for the Cyberworld and has no practical application is right on.:thumbup:

You certainly are entitled to that opinion . I do appreciate your feedback.

After all the posts in this and the other thread (which I tried not to thread-jack, therefore THIS thread) the posility of accidental disengagement by user or BG in a SD due to the design of the lockbar seems to be the issue alluded in the Axis critical threads.

User reports are not BAD. The reports from one EXPERT SD trainer and one expert blade designer (AFCK) commenting on what they (in their expert opinion) consider a FATAL :EEK:: FLAW (my paraphrasing) (ie. something that makes them drop all Axis lock knives from CONSIDERATION when choosing an SD blade) is not BAD.

If this is indeed their only concern, it seems some posters here have already taken corrective action by shortening the lock bar lenght. Also it would follow that every recommendtion of an Axis for SD could be accompanied by that warning. Seems easy enough.

When people recommend the E4 Wave it would be wise to see whether the prospective owner can disengage the mid lock while holding the handle tightly.

Don't you think those would make for reasonable comments to give to someone looking for a REAL WORLD SD KNIFE.

Don't you think that it would start to close the chasm between "BS conversation for the Cyberworld " and a serious discussons of the pros and cons of each design?

If there are any other concerns, let's hear them now.

 

[symphonyincminor]

"Oh sweet Mother of God, I hope this Axis lock holds up as I frantically slash as this attacker who's wielding a baseball bat! I know that the pounds per square inch needed to break these Omega Springs is approximately 24.7 lbs., but what if?? I better hit him on the up stroke, as to lower my chances of having the lock bar snag on some sinew or tissue and possibly disengage..."

If you have to pull your pocket knife out to defend yourself from serious injury or death, you're already up the creek, buddy. You're not going to care what lock is on your knife. Period. It's not going to matter at that point. Trust me.

All this hypothetical garbage is so boring...

 

[OrangeJoe]

Is this thing on! *thud*thud*thud* (OJ taps Cyberworld microphone) Does anybody hear me!
...

Don't you think that it would start to close the chasm between "BS conversation for the Cyberworld " and a serious discussons of the pros and cons of each design?

"Oh sweet Mother of God, I hope this Axis lock holds up as I frantically slash as this attacker who's wielding a baseball bat! I know that the pounds per square inch needed to break these Omega Springs is approximately 24.7 lbs., but what if?? I better hit him on the up stroke, as to lower my chances of having the lock bar snag on some sinew or tissue and possibly disengage..."

If you have to pull your pocket knife out to defend yourself from serious injury or death, you're already up the creek, buddy. You're not going to care what lock is on your knife. Period. It's not going to matter at that point. Trust me.

All this hypothetical garbage is so boring...

I'll take that as a NO!

I give you an A for effort. LOL

 

[hardheart]

no, I don't think including a warning/suggestion in every single recommendation, based on the beliefs of two (2) people, is warranted. I also think the chasm gets closed when people comment from firsthand knowledge of the tools discussed. Speculation is fine to a point, but drawing conclusions from best guesses instead of personal evaluation is not good, imo.

 

[Active Verb]

:thumbup:

no, I don't think including a warning/suggestion in every single recommendation, based on the beliefs of two (2) people, is warranted. I also think the chasm gets closed when people comment from firsthand knowledge of the tools discussed. Speculation is fine to a point, but drawing conclusions from best guesses instead of personal evaluation is not good, imo.

Not to belabor it. But I think even if the speculation were true, the decision of which knife to edc would depend not only on the potential risk of disengagement of an axis lock, but also the competing risk of disengagement of a liner lock, and the possible offsetting benefits of the axis such as faster deployment, greater strength, etc.

 

[znode]

Not to belabor it. But I think even if the speculation were true, the decision of which knife to edc would depend not only on the potential risk of disengagement of an axis lock, but also the competing risk of disengagement of a liner lock, and the possible offsetting benefits of the axis such as faster deployment, greater strength, etc.

Precisely. OrangeJoe is missing the forest for the trees. Or pretty much a single leaf.

 

[OrangeJoe]

Precisely. OrangeJoe is missing the forest for the trees. Or pretty much a single leaf.

IS there a 'Head Blows Up' smilie. I'm not missing the forest I Just asked a question to clarify further establish or refute a line of thought I came to FROM READING OTHER PEOPLES EXPERIENCES AS I TYPED INTHE OP. Please insert Sam Kinnison scream here AHhh, AHHHhhhhh!

I bet znode thinks I think, after all these posts, that the Axis lock disqualifies a folder for SD use. Jeezus! Talk about dense.



PS,

...Due to popular demand.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4346594&postcount=7

 

[JNewell]

I think something BIG got missed here:

A firearms/cqb/edge weapons expert like Michael Janich says that the WORSE situation you can find yourself on the street is unarmed against an Edged Weapon. Not unarmed against a semi auto pistol wielding assailant nor unarmed against various unarmed oponents. Apparently he disagrees with you.

There is a big difference between (1) an unlawful and offensive use of a blade and (2) lawful and defensive use of a blade. At the risk of way over-simplifying, I'd far rather attack with a knife against a handgun than defend with EITHER a knife or a handgun against a knife attack. One of the time-tested training points is flee the blade, attack the gun.

Having said all that, an edged weapon is a strongly recommended backup for other defensive measures and in some cases may be the only practical primary tool.