Is the balisong the answer for a tough knife?

[jac_solar]

I think it's an interesting idea to explore. The balisongs that I've had have suffered from some pretty bad blade play, but they weren't made of high quality materials. SO maybe it there was like a titanium one or one of a similarly hard compound, it could be way tougher than a folder. Let's think about it, for the lock to catastrophically fail, at least 3 very stiff pins would have to be sheared off. And by that point the actual blade would be unusable I think..

Good topic though!

Steel is harder than titanium.

Also, regarding Balisongs -- are the screws that hold the blade generally more sturdy/larger than the pivot in a folder? Are the screws the only thing that holds the blade, or does the blade contact the frames (Ie, when in use, does the blade load just the screws, or frame and screws, or frame?)?

Using the cutting surface of a folder, the liners/frame and stop pin will also take a lot of the load.

 

[o4tg]

Steel is harder than titanium.

Also, regarding Balisongs -- are the screws that hold the blade generally more sturdy/larger than the pivot in a folder? Are the screws the only thing that holds the blade, or does the blade contact the frames (Ie, when in use, does the blade load just the screws, or frame and screws, or frame?)?

Using the cutting surface of a folder, the liners/frame and stop pin will also take a lot of the load.

It all depends on the construction. It seems most modern balisongs use adjustabpe pivot screws that are as thick (if not thicker) than most traditional pivots. Timing seems to be controlled by the tang pin and pivot geometry, which the handles squeeze against in the open position. I think it's also key that the stress load is spread out over two pivots rather than one.

Just looking at the balisong market makes my head spin. Why most of them use pins at all amazes me. The tang pin should be a screw so that it can be replaced should lock up be compromised by wear with a slightly larger example.

I think balis are a niche market which is why they're honestly plagued with poor construction. I found a $20 one made of 1065 with adjustable hardware and micarta scales that comes with a kydex open carry belt sheath I may try. Also looked at a Bear Ops model that was supposedly designed by a member here, but it uses G10 frames which would weaken the design considerably.

 

[jac_solar]

It all depends on the construction. It seems most modern balisongs use adjustabpe pivot screws that are as thick (if not thicker) than most traditional pivots. Timing seems to be controlled by the tang pin and pivot geometry, which the handles squeeze against in the open position. I think it's also key that the stress load is spread out over two pivots rather than one.

Just looking at the balisong market makes my head spin. Why most of them use pins at all amazes me. The tang pin should be a screw so that it can be replaced should lock up be compromised by wear with a slightly larger example.

I think balis are a niche market which is why they're honestly plagued with poor construction. I found a $20 one made of 1065 with adjustable hardware and micarta scales that comes with a kydex open carry belt sheath I may try. Also looked at a Bear Ops model that was supposedly designed by a member here, but it uses G10 frames which would weaken the design considerably.

Yeah, they should only be made with adjustable screws.

But, the blade needs to go through the frames to optimize the flipping capability I think. You could make one with an extended tang that hits the frames when open, but it wouldn't be a good flipper.

 

[stonproject]

I carry a 51 quite often. Mine is ROCK solid open (especially with the latch closed, and the pivots adjusted properly). I would argue that balisongs are one of the most utility friendly folding knives there is. However, they would be poor for defense, in the sense that there are too many comprehensive motor-skill movements involved in deploying the blade. I would feel confident my 51 would withstand much more abuse than any of my other folders (Thats assuming the pivots broke before the blade itself does). These are just my thoughts.

 

[SFCArmy]

When I purchase a knife it is for one thing, self defence; personally, they have to be made in the USA, no play of the blade, blade needs to hold an edge and should not need no more than honing the blade.

The best in my collection are the Benchmade Heckler & Koch Ally Folder w/Combo Edge Black 2.8", Benchmade 810 Contego, TAC FORCE Auto Open, KA-BAR 3050 MULE Heavy-Duty Folder. (Made in Taiwan, surprised me as how well it stands to my standards.) TOPS/Buck 090 CSAR-T Avid Folding Knife 3-1/2" 420HC Tanto Blade, Steel with Rubber Over-mold Handles, Tac Force "Tiger Stripe" Assisted Opening Rescue Knife - EMS. SOG TF7 Trident Folding Knife Assisted 3.75", I have a slew of Folding Knives

However, I love Fixed Blade Fighting knives, like the KA-BAR Leather Handled Fighting/Utility, Ontario WWII M3 Trench Knife 6-9/16" Carbon Steel Bayonet Blade, Camillus Heathen Tactical Combat Fixed 5.5" 1095 Carbon Blade. I have over a hundred knives in all I like, but if I had to use a knife for self defense, it will be a fixed blade as my first choice and I do carry one strapped to my Wheelchair actually a motorized power chair.

The Benchmade 62 Bali-Song Butterfly 4.25" Weehawk Plain Blade, Stainless Steel Handles, T-Latch, flashy although, never really had the urge to purchase one.

 

[knife dragon]

However, they would be poor for defense, in the sense that there are too many comprehensive motor-skill movements involved in deploying the blade.

THAT IS LIKE SAYING A JIAN/GIM is no good for self defense because it took longer to learn how to use it well. Oviously this argument does not hold water in a practical sense. why, you might say. simple any blade that you will use to save your life in a self defense situation is worth knowing well enough so that deployment isn't something that you think about at all. it becomes natural like breathing.

for instance i got in a brand new scary sharp 29 weehawk. i did my usual forward latch opening and i did it without looking atthe blade just to test this knife out. the blade went into it's open position like it had been handled by me for quite awhile. it was effortless.

so moral to the story is. practice with your knife the way you would need to maybe save your life. that will make any good balisong a hellraiser of a weapon. ask a kid in the P.I. that's 13 AND SEE IF HE AGREES. then go watch his grand pa work the knife without even trying. u get out of it what you put into it.

 

[stonproject]

THAT IS LIKE SAYING A JIAN/GIM is no good for self defense because it took longer to learn how to use it well. Oviously this argument does not hold water in a practical sense. why, you might say. simple any blade that you will use to save your life in a self defense situation is worth knowing well enough so that deployment isn't something that you think about at all. it becomes natural like breathing.

for instance i got in a brand new scary sharp 29 weehawk. i did my usual forward latch opening and i did it without looking atthe blade just to test this knife out. the blade went into it's open position like it had been handled by me for quite awhile. it was effortless.

so moral to the story is. practice with your knife the way you would need to maybe save your life. that will make any good balisong a hellraiser of a weapon. ask a kid in the P.I. that's 13 AND SEE IF HE AGREES. then go watch his grand pa work the knife without even trying. u get out of it what you put into it.

Generally speaking, the people of this forum are not going to be trained extensively in knife combat. Deploying a knife in a defense situation that warrants it; a situation where you feel you are going to die, is going to be difficult to manage with your adrenaline pumping, and thedegree in which motor skills are impaired because of it. Now imagine joe shmoe trying to flip out a butterfly knife in the same situation, itd be difficult to say the least.

 

[jill jackson]

Depending what State you're in, who you are and what you are doing when found with one, many cops will arrest you if they find you with a balisong knife. I've seen people arrested in my State for other charges and they always gleefully tack on a dangerous weapon charge if the person has a "flip knife". I think that's a bit odd because the flea markets here are loaded with them. I've never seen an arrest just for the knife though, it's always added on along with the primary charges.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

MY BM 51 is damn near perfect, no play
The only thing that they failed at was to use screwed stop pins instead of solid ones, i dont really trust such a tiny double screw construction
Also the tang is rather tiny right behind the edge, not a knife you want to chop firewood with
I love the simple clip and the machined pattern on the liners

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

I would say they are much rougher and practical than some give credit for but at the same time not as fast as people tend to think.

 

[link2derek]

Once a good Bali is open (especially if it has a good locking mechanism), it's as close to a fixed blade as you can get:

 

[Inkbender]

Generally speaking, the people of this forum are not going to be trained extensively in knife combat. Deploying a knife in a defense situation that warrants it; a situation where you feel you are going to die, is going to be difficult to manage with your adrenaline pumping, and thedegree in which motor skills are impaired because of it. Now imagine joe shmoe trying to flip out a butterfly knife in the same situation, itd be difficult to say the least.

Agreed. The motor skills under stress factor is huge. And even if one is trained in knife fighting, most do not practice bali deployment while being attacked at the same time. A lot of people think they would fare better than they actually would. One could tape up their blade or, better yet, use a trainer and have a buddy put on some boxing gloves or whatever and come at you. Test this with a known start time of the drill as well as with random start times. The closing distance of 21 feet in 1 second "rule" has proven troublesome for some merely attempting to deploy a firearm, let alone a bali.

 

[o4tg]

Hmmm. Maybe it's my memory fading, but I distinctly remember being able to pull mine out of my pocket and let one side drop open and back around incredibly easy. No offense, but I'd much rather try to open a bali fast under stress than a spydie hole.

 

[Inkbender]

No offense taken. I have merely had my own issues when working on deployment under pressure.
Zero stress, I can comb my hair real freakin' quick though

And my "fastest" Spydie does not utilize a hole method opening

 

[o4tg]

And my "fastest" Spydie does not utilize a hole method opening

Cheater.

I think I'm going to get a cheapy to practice with on an open carry belt system while still carrying a folder in my pocket just in case. Anything that requires me pulling a knife in defense would more likely result in me drawing a pistol instead, but just giving it thought, I'm still thinking an assisted flipper is where it's at for when physical contact has been established without preparation.

 

[jobasha11]

When I purchase a knife it is for one thing, self defence; personally, they have to be made in the USA, no play of the blade, blade needs to hold an edge and should not need no more than honing the blade.

The best in my collection are the Benchmade Heckler & Koch Ally Folder w/Combo Edge Black 2.8", Benchmade 810 Contego, TAC FORCE Auto Open, KA-BAR 3050 MULE Heavy-Duty Folder. (Made in Taiwan, surprised me as how well it stands to my standards.) TOPS/Buck 090 CSAR-T Avid Folding Knife 3-1/2" 420HC Tanto Blade, Steel with Rubber Over-mold Handles, Tac Force "Tiger Stripe" Assisted Opening Rescue Knife - EMS. SOG TF7 Trident Folding Knife Assisted 3.75", I have a slew of Folding Knives

However, I love Fixed Blade Fighting knives, like the KA-BAR Leather Handled Fighting/Utility, Ontario WWII M3 Trench Knife 6-9/16" Carbon Steel Bayonet Blade, Camillus Heathen Tactical Combat Fixed 5.5" 1095 Carbon Blade. I have over a hundred knives in all I like, but if I had to use a knife for self defense, it will be a fixed blade as my first choice and I do carry one strapped to my Wheelchair actually a motorized power chair.

The Benchmade 62 Bali-Song Butterfly 4.25" Weehawk Plain Blade, Stainless Steel Handles, T-Latch, flashy although, never really had the urge to purchase one.

Tac force as in frost cutlery and the like? Sorry to burst your bubble but thats about as far from "made in America" as it gets.

 

[Inkbender]

Cheater.

Hehehe

I think I'm going to get a cheapy to practice with on an open carry belt system while still carrying a folder in my pocket just in case. Anything that requires me pulling a knife in defense would more likely result in me drawing a pistol instead, but just giving it thought, I'm still thinking an assisted flipper is where it's at for when physical contact has been established without preparation.

More than I would like to admit, my ex used to beat me to ready position from pocket and IWB using an assisted Leek with a lanyard (I was proud that she practiced this). We would go back and forth-- until I brought a waved folder into the mix. On top of that, a ringed waved folder, such as the Karahawk or Emerson karambits, offers very sure indexing while moving around or not. Of course a fixed blade would be optimal, but that's not what we're discussing.

A bali or assisted folder can be a three step deal:
1) Locate/index the folder or bali (and possibly unlatch)
2) "Present"/index folder or bali from pocket (and unlatch if not already)
3) Deploy blade

I understand that some people are quite adept at blending steps 2 and 3, but for a lot of us, this is not built into hand manipulation yet.

A waved folder requires two steps as far as I can tell:
1) Locate/index folder
2) "Present"/deploy blade

You mentioned a key idea-- the very real possibility in these bad situations of physical contact being established prior to preparation/awareness.
In my opinion, you can count on a scuffle or having to deal a blow before securing the time to deploy a blade if that's what you have in mind.

I'm hoping to NEVER have a blade-involved altercation and would do everything in my power to prevent it.

 

[balihead42]

You're correct, there is no lock fail.

However, all balisongs have a decent amount of play along with OTFs, so that might hinder their performance. In addition, handles on most models don't provide a very substantial grip. I think your best bet is a lock-back or button lock as the toughest mechanism.

On cheaper balis there may be a substantial amount of handle play, but on a quality bali when it is latched or unlatched there can be almost no play, especially if the knife that has a bushing or bearing system. Lock bar and button lock mechanisms are great don't get me wrong, but on a bali as long as your hands are around the 2 handles there is no way it will fai; unless you have a cheapie with crappie tang pins or zen pins. As far as traction goes the horns of the bali keep your hand from sliding up on the blade. A lot of balis also have a bead blasted finish, which provides excellent grip (especially on titanium)

 

[Charlie Mike]

Why I prefer to wave everything:

[video=youtube;KEtBPE46MCo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEtBPE46MCo[/video]

 

[Taroh JPN]

I'm curious about Mr.Benjamin Cardoso's balison. If I ask him to make bali,how much does it cost? If anyone knows, please let me know.