Is the compression lock stronger than the axis lock?

Anthony..This started because of the statement that ithe compression lock is not in a viable knife..Yes..I know its not your exact words..But they are the words..Viable was / is a really poor choice of words and instead of re-phrasing it you continued to make the same defensive agruments,,Since LOTs of people actually use it,..well ITS proved itself "FREAKING VIABLE"..LOL
which in caase you don't get it is VERY VERY different than its not for you, you don't like it OR its not your kind of knife...

any of those are valid..
your statement of its not viable ( or a viable utility /defensive knife) is not....

Again its still on the thread for many of those responding and the corresponding threads that are talked about all relate to the fact that in REAL time..in REAL usage the compression lock..which is basically ONLY on the market in my GUNTING..is doing what its supposed to do..as Steven Jody,David, Guntaholic and others have stated..
Is that scientific proof it works? no but its quantitative that it works,,Hey're USING it abusing it and the lock works..Steve told you two Axis locks jammed on him..The rolling lock on the escalators got zapped..
Hell I tried to remind others that the simple lock back like in the CHINOOK was very very strong and reliable,,one didn't need to go to a "new fangled lock..."

again this thread was a cancerian way ( not A-B-C linear thinking)of showing that the lock works..thats its strong and that people who NEED the lock not to fail, believe in the compression lock...

You handled the knife alot? OK..WHERE?..LOL
I guess David's question is valid...Since he's been involved from day #1...been Zapped, trapped and experimented on..gads he goes back to the Escalator days ....

Hey,you don't like the GUNTING..GREAT,...no problem..you're in the minority of people I met but thats what makes life interesting...and you are certainly allowed to express that..BUT its a viable knife ( as a knife and as an edged tool.)and a viable solution in the edged tool world...

Again..time will tell if the GUNTING is the GLOCK of the knife world...

have a great weekend!

PS: actually I PAY all these people to say great things about the compression lock and the GUNTING....no wonder I'm broke!


[This message has been edited by BRAM (edited 11-16-2000).]
 
How about....and I state AGAIN..not viable for me...

Handled the Gunting..? SHOT, BLADE, NYC, extensive Escalator time...Its not completely the knife guys...Its the CONCEPT...the knife is well made, well executed in the typical Spyderco fashion. The lock looks to be a winner.

Nuff said,

I disagree with the escalation/de-escalation of force using a knife as an impact weapon.
I know plenty of others that do as well. Bram knows my feelings, as I think I summed them up pretty nicely in an email to him.

I admire all of the time, effort, and energy you have spent on this project, Bram. Just realize that this "defensive system" does not work for everyone, and frankly it goes against my grain. Unlike a GLOCK, it is not a universal solution.

Comparing the Escalator/Gunting to a GLOCK is pretty heady. I always felt that the Endura/Delica fit that role.

Maybe I will get proven wrong. It would not be the first time.

------------------
"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
What planet are you from? Who compared the GUNTING to a GLOCK. Am I missing something here? What does one have to do with the other.

As for your "Extensive escalator time" I believe Driscoll clearly stated that you can't compare the Escalator to the Gunting. The Escalator is prehistoric compared to the improvements of the Gunting. As for your "handling" the Gunting in NYC, I find it very, very, vvveeeerrrryyyyy hard to believe that you weren't impressed. You also stated that you have handled the Gunting Extensively. How extensively can you handle a Gunting at Blade shows, five minutes max? Ohhhhhhh, I guess that makes you an authority. I also find it hard to believe that you actually watched the tapes and don't think it will work.

As for the concept of the GUNTING being used as an impact tool, what is so hard to understand? I believe the GUNTING is patented and licensed with the United States as a Close Range Medium Impact Tool. The United States recognizes the GUNTING as a close range medium impact tool. Why can't you?

I don't have much of an opinion for any person, or martial artists who thinks that his or her way is the only way and close their minds to anything else. This is the 21 century, not the Stone Age. Wake UP!


[This message has been edited by Jody (edited 11-16-2000).]
 
Jody, actually Bram compared the Gunting to a Glock. It might help if you read all the posts.

No one is a better expert or authority on what will work for me than me, wouldnt you agree?

Whether it took one hour or one week to make that decision, its still a valid decision.


Do you feel better now that you have that off your chest?

------------------
"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
No, I don't feel better. I'm still steaming!!!!! You see, I have a very low tolerance for ignorance. I guess I have issues. So be it....don't we all?

Now I see where the GUNTING/GLOCK comment came from. I didn't catch it before....I still don't get the comparison. I guess I am having a blonde moment.

You are right, it obviuosly doesn't work for you. You stick to what you know best, which obviously does not include any REAL KNOWLEDGE of the Gunting and it's usage.

[This message has been edited by Jody (edited 11-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jody (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
Jody,

I am sure you have studied numerous blade arts before you found the Gunting to be optimized for you.

It appears the Gunting may be better for a female than a male for one primary reason:
Because of the size disparity that often occurs between a female and her unarmed attacker, you would probably be legally justified in using your Gunting as an impact weapon in most defensive circumstances against an unarmed male aggressor.

I am not interested in a fighting system that
advocates drawing a -weapon- to perform "non-lethal", but potentially dangerous maneuvers against an unarmed, or potentially armed aggressor.

If my weapon is drawn, it won't be for a non-lethal reason. My goal will be immediate stoppage of a fight. Whether or not that results in death for the other party, I guess that depends a lot on luck on their part. Knives are not toys. They shouldnt be used as a threat, or a bargaining chip.

If someone pulls a closed blade, lead pipe, candlestick, or whatever on me, they better be prepared to give up the ghost, because I wont be attempting to deescalate the fight, I will be attempting to end the fight, and neutralize the threat in the quickest, and safest way possible for myself and for my family, not for the aggressor.

This does not include submission holds, thumb locks, magic words, or finger death touches. It does include a a very serious knife, with a blade no less than 4 inches, preferably 5" or more. 6-7" if I can carry it.

I dont claim to be an expert. I am not selling any tapes, or knives. I am merely
stating my opinion. Because of my core beliefs regarding self-defense, the Gunting will not work for me.

You obviously feel comfortable with the legal and social ramifications of using the Gunting in this fashion. Good for you.



------------------
"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb
 
Yes, I have studied other blade arts prior to the GUNTING. Over 6 years of study to be exact. I have many more years of empty hand defense/karate. Yes I feel that the GUNTING is the right choice for me.

It is okay that the GUNTING is not your thing. My husband is from the OLD SCHOOL of slamming and jamming. He is one of those guys from the "full contact" days. Any type of knife work, no matter what it is...is not his cup of tea. He prefers to rely on his empty hand techniques and 30 years of martial arts experience. And that is okay. But he does recognize the GUNTING's potentential as an impact tool. When I showed it to him, he said "Oh, you can use it like a kubatah". A kubatah is an impact tool (in case you didn't know).

Yes, as a woman I do like to have the added impact of the GUNTING for defense. But when attacked, I didn't use a blade, I didn't use a GUNTING. I used my elbow against a MUCH larger man.....he fell down and he didn't get up. I guess I didn't need the GUNTING after all? I didn't have one then. When I was attacked I didn't have time to pull any weapons. I only had time to react...and I did without thinking. As far as I'm concerned any man who attacks a woman deserves what he gets.

I think the GUNTING is an excellent self defense tool, open or closed. For everyone, regardless of their gender. I'm sure all my buddies of the masculine persuasion will agree with me.

As for a 6" to 7" blade. Who are you planning on using that on? An elephant? Bigger isn't always better. Sure it will definitely do the job. But I have seen a tiny little Spyderco Cricket cut to the bone with one slash. That blade is around an inch I think, give or take. Very small. I carry one everyday. If I cut any size man on any part of his body I guarantee I can cut to the bone with a tiny little Cricket. I feel more than confident with the blade size of the GUNTING.

I don't go around picking fights and/or attacking people. I would only use the GUNTING for defense, or any other weapon for that matter.

I've got to get up early to drive to Bram's tomorrow. I won't be able to respond to any more posts until I get to his computer.

So, later.
smile.gif
 
Anthony,
I have an Escalator & Drone,played with them a little & now comes a Gunting,do i like it? Yeah,Better than an E. not sure,
haven't handled it yet but I can see see improvements in the G(tapes).As for being your cup of tea,no, Ok.but it is mine!Having a blade that is legal,cause pain,without opening,something you can conceal then decide if I want to cut you or hurt you before you even see it!Thats right,i said before you "see" it,it will be over!Guy's & Jody,don't waste any more time on this guy he doesn't want info. he just wants to be a pain in the ###!
jim
 
Hello,

As I am really in love with the Gunting I will input my two cents...

When you draw a folder you are just drawing an handle, which is different than drawing a fixed blade where the blade is ready to cut.

Now one can draw a military which is open really fast or a Emerson commander wich is opening "automatically"...
With the Gunting I am drawing first a little hammer wich is really devastating.

It's a weapon fast and "invisible" for real problems.

in fact it's a real knife for real defense not a kind of flashy toy to scare an aggressor. The gunting need to be invisible but felt with maximum pain.
It has been thought for real close combat which is a total endeavor, a "dangerous embrace".

Now it's also a great tool. The handle is really confortable for very hard cut in hard wood.

Strange, this time it's a weapon which is an excellent tool ! The Military is exactly the opposite: an excellent tool which is a great weapon.

The lock and the no spacer handle is easy to check and clean.
The Axis lock is also a great lock but its vector are the two omega springs when the Compression vector is a liner.
I really like the Axis for the almost gravity blades it creates, the ease and the ambidextrous.
The compression lock is another philosophy adding simplicity and (perharps) easy to maintain.

I would really like to see Jeff randall testing an Axis folder and the Gunting during one of his expedition.
The Gunting as an urban self defense tool is really shining as a forest cam knife. (I have used mine that way and really I even hit the hump of the Gunting to split wood.

Now the Gunting is perharps not for everybody.
It's a tool for very close combat which is... a nightmare.
I would surely prefer to have a lightsaber in my hands to scare aggressors and keep them at a certain distance.
The gunting is the opposite, silent, invisible and really fast...
It's a dirty fighting tool. Like Fred Perrin La Griffe which needs to remain invisible to your opponent.
Hit fast and run away !
The best thing is to run away first and then to run away faster.

After all the best thing is not to test the lock in real combat...

cheers,

JM
 
Ok..
Look..
Anthony.yes I got your email..which again stated the same thing...OK FINE!..

JODY: take a deep breath girl, your blondness is on overdrive..Anthony
tongue.gif
ardon her..shes actually been in altercations and she's very defensive about her instructor..me..as well as the fact that she, David, Andy,& Thomas are a core group of GUNTAHOLICS that helped deveop its usage..

As you can see even NEMO dropped in from France...Hey NEMO...

stating the obvious...Anthony, the GUNTING is VIABLE...is it personally for you? wellits viability doesn't go away..is it not your choice? OK..
Do you prefer to CUT n gut n run? seems so..again your choice...

LISTEN up you great defenders of the GUNTING; in doing so you have sort of drifted from the thread topic..
Now in stating the rigorous times that you put the new compression lock through..THAT helps the concepts of strength...you demo it in real time..NEMO for example has put it to the test in NON defensive uses and the lock has not failed, jammed nor proved hard to keep clean....

For the rest of this thread no more jumping on Anthony or others about GUNTING itself..YOu guys can go start ANOTHER thread somewhere and go at it about the merits lets say of lethalnon lethal response to a situation....

YOU. BLOND one..take a VERY deep breath...

Comments on actual other locks working or not working in REAL time is OK..problems even with compression locks are OK...
WHY? cause as I stated ( way up front on this thread in its opening!)most of us DO not have the tools to do scientific testing of the lock but we can RELATE the real time use of the tool and the lock response or lack of it..

Thank you all for the enlightening discussion....ROFL....

Got to go teach a GUNTING seminar...


 
Hey Guys/gals,

I like the fact that Anthony may not find the Gunting to his tastes. Before I discovered what the fuss was all about, I was a fixed blade guy as well ( Al Polkowski rode with me everywhere).
No one will argue that a fixed blade is the most reliable "lock". After that, I would place the compression lock for strength and simplicity.
ANthony did say that if the compression lock was on say a Military he might be interested. It's not the lock he had a problem with, just the overall design/philosophy of the Gunting.
Fine by me.
The Glock is an amazing tool as well, but if you knew it was going to hit the fan wouldn't you want something in .223 or 12 gauge instead?
Gunting is the same. A Bagwell bowie, Crossada, a katana are good blade choices as well, but will you have them when you need them? Are they legal to carry?

Just my $0.02 . Off to zap some arms.
biggrin.gif


Steve



[This message has been edited by steve22595 (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
Originally posted by steve22595:
I agree that the compression lock is simpler. It also has done away with the need for a ball detent as on a liner lock.
Click to expand...

Why is that?

Originally posted by steve22595:
I also like the Axis lock, but have had two jam (in the open position) on hard openings. This after only a dozen or so uses. IMO, great for utility, but not as reliable when it hits the fan under extreme stress.
Click to expand...

Wait just a sec. You saying that, under extreme stress, when the only thing you trust more than a compression lock is a fixed blade, an axis lock jamming "(in the open position)" is a bad thing?

Okaaaay.
confused.gif


Not saying anything against the compression lock. I agree that it appears simpler, and probably more robust because of that. I'm looking forward to it coming out in more designs (I hope), because I'd like to get on. The Gunting just isn't my thing.
------------------
iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 11-17-2000).]
 
1) I think the Gunting still has a ball detent, it's just invisible due to the placement of the lock (though I might be wrong).

2) Any knife that can't be safely put away is bad. It's like a chainsaw that won't shut off. Let's say you are being mugged by someone, a few blocks from a police station, and because you're fat and out of shape (like me) you can't run away. So you pull your knife and frighten the mugger off. Now what are you going to do with your blade? Walk the few blocks to the PD with an open knife in your hand? I'm sure they'll welcome you open arms then. Throw away your hundred dollar knife (that just saved your bacon) because you can't put it safely away? Neither one of these options seems too attractive to me.
 
Burke, I can't say that I disagree with you that not being to close it is a bad thing, but not that bad. As for the choices that you mention after it jams open, I'd probably pick neither. I mean, it's not really an either/or proposition.

Quick question, um... steve2205 or something: are those axis locks still jammed? What the heck did you do to them, now that I think about it?! I've opened every one of mine with full inertia openings, without even holding the locking bar back, and never had one JAM. Get sticky, yeah, but nothing that required more than my thumb and index to unstick. Not what I'd call a jam.

Oh well. Like I said, I'm not knocking the compression lock, and I'm not particularly defending the axis lock. It was just the statement that I was questioning. No biggie.



------------------
iktomi
 
Hey guys,

I don't have a problem with the axis being "jammed" in the open position in a combative situation. Of course at that point it really doesn't matter.

If your slide lock doesn't hold the action open after the last round in the is fired, you still can effectively fight with the pistol. It's just that I expect my personal safety equipment to perform 100% as advertsed at all times (as long as I do my part).
The compression lock has performed for me, but I guess I have had bad luck with the axis.

One of the "jams" required the owner to work on the release bar with a screwdriver until it popped back into place (full size McHenry/Williams).

The second required plenty of hand pressure and some tapping of the knife butt on a table to get it to release (small McHenry/Williams).

As for the lack of a ball detent, the compression lock also holds the blade in place while in the closed position by sitting in a small cutout. Quite cool.

As for abusing the compresion lock, the drone does a good job of buttering bagels without any problems.
biggrin.gif
 
Hi. Hmmmmmmm. Interesting thread. No lack of opinion here, or passion. Great stuff and necessary for a forum...right?

Egos aside, I don't like strawberry. It's not bad, I just don't like it. Personal tastes.

Gunting requires addtional learning...and some practice, not for everyone. that's OK, right? Some just wanna cut. that's cool also. to each his (or her) own.

BTW, thanx for the input Jody. Always appreciate the opinions of the ladies in Spyderland.

Regarding the locks? All good, just different. the Axis lock is an excellent design and Benchmade does a good job with it. The Rolling lock is also an excellent design, also built with passion and conviction. Both Benchmade and Rekat are to be respected and appreciated for their efforts. It is not an easy task to bring a new concept to the marketplace.

The compression lock is Spydercos newest offering in the locks. It is also unique and interesting. Made with passion and conviction.

Are these new locks perfect. No...not yet. Are they great, YES! all of them. We've done random testing of each of them and feel that they are great offerings. Is one better? And for Whom? Hard to say. Many factors to contemplate. Some carry more importance than others to different folks.

As Shootist stated. Reliablility is more critical than ultimate strength. The result of the makers, not the design. three companies, three locks. all good, just different. Each can be made as strong as one cares to make them, by increasing material strength.

BTW, there is no ball bearing in the Compression lock. We found another way. It is a one piece lock.

I really appreciate the support for the Gunting. Says much for the design, and the designer.

sal
 
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