Is the lock in folders that big a deal?

Good answers.

And I agree that a serious self-defense knife cannot be an instrument that MIGHT fail.

As for the chances - as Murphy once said - if it could happen - then it will and in the worst timing.

If you don't think you can hit someone with enough force to make the lock fail - just think about a strong physical confrontation with someone twice your size - in which you accidentally hit the back of the blade against a wall or a door frame - it will get the blade on your fingers faster then you can say - OOOOCH!

Better carry a fixed blade.

Food for thought
 
yeah better stop selling folded knives alltogether then.. then we all can carry bowie 7"-10" and machetas
 
Lock reliability remains a critical issue, not just for defensive knives, but for utility knives as well. People really working with their knives tend to end up in all kinds of weird situations that can stress the lock.

For me, the advantage of the rolling lock and axis lock are reliability. Most liner locks, in fact most well-done lockbacks, are plenty strong for me. But among the axis lock's various assets, extreme reliability features high for me. And believe me, stabbing type motions aren't the only motion to worry about -- in fact, I'd bet that torquing the knife during utility work is responsible for more stitched fingers than stabbing motions.

Now, if you're not going to use your knife hard, the argument that these newfangled locks are just overkill that appeal to people who irrationally want whatever is new, might apply to you. But if you are going to actually use your knife, you're putting your fingers at risk. Liner locks fail for a number of reasons, not just the right blade-tang interface geometry, but from white knuckling when the liner sticks out too far, from torquing when the washers are too thick or small in diameter, and from changes in geometry when the frame isn't extremely well-made. Locksbacks fail when there's just a little lint in the mechanism (which is open and appears to attract such lint), when the locking tooth wears down a little, or when the palm accidently disengages the very-open release button.

These aren't guesses, these kinds of problems have been documented over and over. Yes, I realize there are people who have used X or Y kind of lock without a problem for years, but this is a game of probability.

Safety is something that should always be taken seriously. As safer mechanisms come out, a smart person would do well to take a look at them. And we all realize that safety will never be 100% assured -- but that's no reason to give up and say, if I'm not 100% safe, I'll just use a fixed blade all the time. Instead, figure out what is and isn't safe about the current technology, and move on when a better technology comes out.

The rolling lock and axis lock appear to be extremely reliable. So does the integral lock, which functions differently enough from the liner lock that I don't lump the two together -- not to mention the fact that the integral lock does not use the liner, it uses the whole frame.

In short, depending on how you use your knife, the reliability of these new locks are very much a feature worth paying $$ for.
 
Chariot,
Please do not confuse lock strength with lock stability. Liner locks are failing sometimes not due to breaking but due to loss of stability, than liner starts to move across the blade tang what it shouldn't to do. Usually this can be caused with repeating load impulses, this situation can be simulated with spine whack test.

In real life if you are using your knife properly locking device is not loaded at all, maybe this is the main reason why I have all my fingers in whole despite the most part of my life I have used non-lockable folders. But this can noticeable limit knife use...

Also, I have nothing against to have my non-replaceable fingers even safer
wink.gif

Think this is the main reason which justifies manufacturer searching to work out new locking devices which would be stronger, more stable, more reliable an as result - safer.

 
thanks for the posts, especially the last ones. you've convinced me, congrats :-)
not being a knife nut, i'll probably settle for ONE folded knife, might as well pay a little extra for the quality then... when it comes to safety (wether it's your fingers or your life in self-defense situations) i dont think price should be an issue... thanks for the eye-opener.
 
Actually you are not just paying for the lock. IMO, "traditional" slipjoint pocket knife producers stayed with 1095 carbon steel, same handle design for too many years.

Innovative companies have come up with new materials, new designs, and almost always some sort of lock. So when you buy a modern lockback, generally you are getting much more than just the lock. ( POS excepted )

Now the "traditional" knife companies are finally trying to catch up.

DaveH
 
Jeff: What were the linerlocks you had fail in this manner? That just isn't right, and i would want to avoid them at all costs.

Chariot: Carrying a fixed blade does not necessarily mean a Large bowie. A small fixed blade such as those from Benchmade, Busse, CS, etc, etc, are extremely practical to carry. They are strong, light (except maybe the busse
smile.gif
) and will never fold closed.

Personally, i just bought a SIFU, and i wanted the rolling lock. Not because i am ever likely to hang a truck from the handle, but knowing that i can makes me feel safer. What can go wrong, will go wrong, and i like my fingers.

James

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The beast we are, lest the beast we become.
 
well knowing all locks can fail why did you get the sifu? isn't it too big to carry in your pocket anyway? deciding between the sifu and a fixed blade i can sure see why i should go for a fixed blade.. but for a smaller knife like the kershaw whirlwind a folder would suit me fine.



Chariot: Carrying a fixed blade does not necessarily mean a Large bowie. A small fixed blade such as those from Benchmade, Busse, CS, etc, etc, are extremely practical to carry. They are strong, light (except maybe the busse
smile.gif
) and will never fold closed.

Personally, i just bought a SIFU, and i wanted the rolling lock. Not because i am ever likely to hang a truck from the handle, but knowing that i can makes me feel safer. What can go wrong, will go wrong, and i like my fingers.

James

[/B][/QUOTE]

 
James, it was a Socom, Manual. I owned two at the time for over a year and had extreme faith in them. One day that all changed. I tested my other knife and one of my friends and to my dissapointment (and amazement) all failed with the slightest tapping of the spine. Others have had the same problem, while some say there locks are solid as a rock. Go figure. Take care, Jeff
 
Woops, locking open is only 1/2 of the issue. Any thoughs or problems in keeping your favorite knife closed while in your pocket. This is where the old slipjoint merits a plus in my book.
 
Not2sharp:

For keeping the blade closed via spring tension, a traditional slipjoint offers no significant advantage over a lock back or Axis Lock.

David Rock

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AKTI Member # A000846
Stop when you get to bone.
 
My BM812 doesn't have much ball detent action but I keep it in a pouch so it's a nonissue.
I am attracted to the high-end locks mostly because of their technological merit and ease of operation. For my purposes a traditional slipjoint would suffice. But I have a question for Talmadge and those who say that the added strength and reliability of the axis, rolling lock, etc. is needed for the tasks they subject their knives to. I am not at all skeptical. I just want to know- what do you use your knives for?
 
Chariot, you may wish to look closely at the liner lock on the Spyderco products such as the Military and the StarMate. Sal Glesser uses an eccentric blade pivot that adjusts the blade tang to liner lock fit for optimum fit. I don't think that I have ever heard of anyone complaining of one of these knives, if properly adjusted, closing accidentally on them. If you wish, you might post that question in the Spyderco forum and see what kind of answers you get.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
David,

Quote:
"For keeping the blade closed via spring tension, a traditional slipjoint offers no significant advantage over a lock back or Axis Lock."

I agree. I was thinking liner lock when I posted the issue.



 
Chariot,

A lot off talk about locks.
A lock is as good as the manufacturer wants it to be.
Cheap, very cheap knives are just no good.
Unfold a knife and put force on the knife by trying to bend it. The reaction of the lock is an indication. A stiff knife will have a good lock, however not always. You could try to "slam" the unfolded knife with the back off it's blade on a wooden surface to give a jam on the lock. A bad lock closes quickly.
A "grand slam" on a good knife keeps it straight.
 

Easyrider: Don't really know. The idea of a rolling lock interested me and I was not familiar with the offerings available with that design. Thanks for the reply.

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited 07-26-2000).]
 
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