Is the Loveless Shop still operating?

It is nice to hear some opinions on this. I definitely agree that Jim's knives can't be compared to the other Loveless style knives out there. These are still the real thing, right from the Loveless shop, as they have always been. I wouldn't mind seeing a Merritt maker logo though. Even if it was added to the nude/knives logo.

I have sold a few of the newer knives in the last year and they do seem to be valued a little less than when Bob was around, which is understandable. I have had quite a few chats with collectors who think these newer knives should be priced where all the other Loveless style knives are at. That makes no sense to me. The shop prices are still the same today. Jim could drop the prices a little but why would he? I think the value of these knives will be proven as they become more available. I also agree that the lack of information and marketing are the reasons for all the questions and hesitations on value.

There are many great knife makers and more up and coming. I believe the tradition of Loveless knives will always continue but the true and authentic knives that have set the standard will end when Jim hangs it up.

Just my thoughts.

Tom
 
Tom@L&M said:
It is nice to hear some opinions on this. I definitely agree that Jim's knives can't be compared to the other Loveless style knives out there. These are still the real thing, right from the Loveless shop, as they have always been. I wouldn't mind seeing a Merritt maker logo though. Even if it was added to the nude/knives logo.

I have sold a few of the newer knives in the last year and they do seem to be valued a little less than when Bob was around, which is understandable. I have had quite a few chats with collectors who think these newer knives should be priced where all the other Loveless style knives are at. That makes no sense to me. The shop prices are still the same today. Jim could drop the prices a little but why would he? I think the value of these knives will be proven as they become more available. I also agree that the lack of information and marketing are the reasons for all the questions and hesitations on value.

There are many great knife makers and more up and coming. I believe the tradition of Loveless knives will always continue but the true and authentic knives that have set the standard will end when Jim hangs it up. Just my thoughts.
Tom
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So the price of new Loveless knives out of the shop remain the same as when Bob was alive. Then what's happened is that previously, anyone lucky enough to get a new knife out of the Loveless shop could immediately re-sell it for a 30%-60% premium depending on the model and rarity, now those premiums have dropped to probably 1/2.
Still an impressive and lucrative market.
 
Was there a similar reaction from the market when Bo Randall died?
 
^ Joe, I think you will agree that Bill Moran's knife values dropped significantly after he died, but have been recovering.

On the other hand, the market for Loveless knives made before Bob's death (primarily the double edge fighters) have remained strong.
 
Kevin Jones said:
^ Joe, I think you will agree that Bill Moran's knife values dropped significantly after he died, but have been recovering.

On the other hand, the market for Loveless knives made before Bob's death (primarily the double edge fighters) have remained strong.
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Yeah, I know that about the Moran knives from personal experience.:eek: The reason that I asked about the Randalls was because at the time of their death, both Bo Randall and Bob Loveless were doing very little of the actual knife making as best as I can tell. The difference with the Loveless knives is that you could typically identify one specific maker who was making the knives as opposed to a cottage industry style production crew like at Randall. While the old and rare Randalls are the obviously the most valuable, the dealer and aftermarket values (oft time representing the "privilege cost" of having one now instead of at MSRP 5 or 6 years from now) and the waiting list did not seem to suffer when Bo was gone.
 
Tom@L&M said:
It is nice to hear some opinions on this. I definitely agree that Jim's knives can't be compared to the other Loveless style knives out there. These are still the real thing, right from the Loveless shop, as they have always been. I wouldn't mind seeing a Merritt maker logo though. Even if it was added to the nude/knives logo.
Tom
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Still, buyers are obviously comparing them to other Loveless-style knives on the market. The Merritt knives have the advantage of coming from the Loveless' shop, but without Bob Loveless sitting there, they are not "Loveless Knives."


Tom@L&M said:
I have sold a few of the newer knives in the last year and they do seem to be valued a little less than when Bob was around, which is understandable. I have had quite a few chats with collectors who think these newer knives should be priced where all the other Loveless style knives are at. That makes no sense to me. SNIP
Tom
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I would respectfully say, your "chats with collectors" prove my point.

The -value- of a Loveless knife had and has to do with Brand Identity. The Loveless Brand is one of the most valuable, perhaps the most valuable, in the cutlery market. As long as Loveless was on the scene, the knives coming out of his shop were Loveless Knives. The fact that Mr. Merritt has worked with Loveless making the knives for some years was no secret, but it didn't matter, Loveless was still there. Now he is gone. That changed things.

Steve Johnson or Ricardo Velarde (among many others) have been making knives in the Loveless style for years that just about everyone would agree are easily the equal of Genuine Loveless Knives in terms of production quality. The price point for the Loveless style knives is determined by all the other market factors, including the brand identty of the Maker himself. Folks certainly collect Johnson and Velarde knives based on their merit alone, not on the fact that their design heritage may come from Loveless.

It may be possible to convince collectors that the knife they're buying now, coming from the Loveless shop, made by Jim Merritt is the same knife they would have received when Loveless was still alive, BUT I think it will be next to impossible to convince them that it is still a Loveless Knife with the same brand identity and market value it would have carried if it had come from the shop when Loveless was still alive.

Certainly it will be interesting to see how the collector market responds to the Merritt knives.

I would love to have a Jim Merritt dropped hunter! I'm certain his own name and the knives he makes are enough to stand up to any competition.
 
Hi Tom,

Thanks for joining us. I don't know you (yet), but you write with authority, and clearly you have good experiences. :)

Tom@L&M said:
I believe the tradition of Loveless knives will always continue but the true and authentic knives that have set the standard will end when Jim hangs it up.
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^^ When I first read this statement I chuckled. Because, as Kevin Wilkins so carefully pointed out, the 'brand identity' (authenticity to me), has always been a question mark, even in Bob's presence. My chuckle emitted because the most truly 'authentic' Bob Loveless knife isn't made by the uber-talented Jim Merritt.

That said, I understand that a knife finalized in the ORIGINAL RWL shop, made in the same tooling and methods, still rises to the top. :)

Kevin's daring post points out the dilemmas involved.

I'm just an interested observer, and I'm curious.

Thanks for the insights.

Jim
 
I'm not commenting on the quality of the knives or their relative worth but a well known collector (he's in Daroms book the great collections) told me at the last ECCKS that he "wouldn't touch" the knives coming out of the shop since Bob died.
 
martinr said:
I'm not commenting on the quality of the knives or their relative worth but a well known collector (he's in Daroms book the great collections) told me at the last ECCKS that he "wouldn't touch" the knives coming out of the shop since Bob died.
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I'm sure there are many opinions about the "quality of the knives or their relative worth" that abound - both in this forum and in the collecting world - as it pertains to Loveless knives, whether produced before or after the passing of Bob Loveless (who arguably had one of the greatest impacts on knife design the last century).

But to quote a negative opinion of a single anonymous source in a widely viewed knife forum? Why not pony up your own opinion, Martin, rather than use an anonymous source that more or less trashes the subject.
 
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Bob, sorry for speaking out of turn, but Martin's post brings up a good point about collectables, and that is, they are often valued at more than they are worth.
I think with a lot of this stuff, emotion is a primary driver behind the exchange of things whose value is well beyond their worth. Desirability is an outgrowth of pure emotion, and often affects hard numbers even though the driving force behind the numbers is actually ephemeral, and possibly even fleeting.
Strange stuff, this human interest topic. Too many shades of grey to kick any opinion out of the conversation.
 
betzner said:
I'm sure there are many opinions about the "quality of the knives or their relative worth" that abound - both in this forum and in the collecting world - as it pertains to Loveless knives, whether produced before or after the passing of Bob Loveless (who arguably had one of the greatest impacts on knife design the last century).

But to quote a negative opinion of a single anonymous source in a widely viewed knife forum? Why not pony up your own opinion, Martin, rather than use an anonymous source that more or less trashes the subject.
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Bob, my stating the opinion of an anonymous source is relevant and isn't trashing the subject. Obviously this collector feels the knives, though made by the same person and coming from the same shop, aren't as valuable. When this comment was made I was with the collector and a dealer and the dealer asked us if there was anything in particular we were looking for. The collector said he wanted a Loveless long bolstered hidden pin stag handled drop point. So he's still buying, not just the current production.
I don't collect Loveless knives but if given the choice to buy one from a dealer, not the shop, and one was made before Bob died and the other after, and they were the same price and the same model, I'd buy the one made before he died. Wouldn't you?
 
martinr said:
Bob, my stating the opinion of an anonymous source is relevant and isn't trashing the subject. Obviously this collector feels the knives, though made by the same person and coming from the same shop, aren't as valuable. When this comment was made I was with the collector and a dealer and the dealer asked us if there was anything in particular we were looking for. The collector said he wanted a Loveless long bolstered hidden pin stag handled drop point. So he's still buying, not just the current production.
I don't collect Loveless knives but if given the choice to buy one from a dealer, not the shop, and one was made before Bob died and the other after, and they were the same price and the same model, I'd buy the one made before he died. Wouldn't you?
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Martin, just trying to flush out direct opinions here. I may have gotten a bit pointed about it, sorry. As far as collecting Loveless knives, anything I would be looking for would need to have been made prior to his death in order to be of interest to me - and in most cases quite some time prior, since I am most particularly interested in vintage pieces with history. As an example, I would never be interested in a chute unless it was one with Archer-style drillings in the guard - a model that has changed over time. Or something from an important set, or from an important collection. Such pieces will always pre-date the death of Loveless.
 
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Kevin Wilkins said:
Certainly it will be interesting to see how the collector market responds to the Merritt knives.
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It's been almost 3 years and I believe we are seeing the collector market responding positively in general to the Merritt knives. As Tom states, Jim Merritt has not had to drop the Loveless Shop's prices from where they were when Bob was alive. And the knives are still bringing a premium over and above shop prices on the secondary market, even if not as much as when Bob was alive. The future will continue to tell.
 
Lorien said:
Bob, sorry for speaking out of turn, but Martin's post brings up a good point about collectables, and that is, they are often valued at more than they are worth.
I think with a lot of this stuff, emotion is a primary driver behind the exchange of things whose value is well beyond their worth. Desirability is an outgrowth of pure emotion, and often affects hard numbers even though the driving force behind the numbers is actually ephemeral, and possibly even fleeting.
Strange stuff, this human interest topic. Too many shades of grey to kick any opinion out of the conversation.
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Lorien, stop confusing the issue with facts!:D:D
 
I think most will agree that from an ergonomic and overall design perspective, Loveless knives are and always have been at the top of custom knives. However I believe those who have examined a lot of Loveless knives will also agree that as far as fit/finish is concerned some are better than others.
 
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