Is the Ultralight movement hurting gear development?

eomeo said:
You will see metal parts replaced with plastic, because it still works for 4-5 years of use, and it prevents Cascade from raising the MSRP of the stove by $5. In this example, weight reductions are a side benefit of cost savings, but certainly not the driving factor.


Cost savings drives quality reductions. Weight reductions are a side benefit.
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You're almost there. In your last statement you say Weight reductions are a side benefit, but what is happening is these weight reductions (cost savings) are being passed on to the consumer as perks and therefore manufacturing cost are going down while retail cost are going up. My fear is that mainstream manufacturers are piggy-backing on the Ultralight trend to increase the prices of products based solely on a few ounces saved. Unless a product is totally redesigned, it's very difficult to remove weight without sacrificing strength and durability in some way or another.

Ultralight purist companies are actually putting out quality ultralight products. Mainstream companies are modifying existing products to make them lighter, which has varying effects on durability, yet it seems none of the cost savings of making a lighter, cheaper part are being passed on to the consumer.
 
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I think ultralight goes in the right direction design wise, because so many packs are ballantly overbuilt.

Now I somewhat agree price wise. Lighter-Simpler should generally mean cheaper, not always the case.

Fact is most people are ready to pay a certain amount of money for good pack, whatever it actually cost. Show me some seller that would let that go.
 
Woods Walker said:
No I think the UL thing is just fine as it offers more options.
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In the clothing department less options. Try to find some decent wool at REI or Great Outdoors (Bass pro shops etc). Its almost impossible to get aside from a retro-beeny cap or perhaps woolpower baselayer. Cabelas still pumps out some good wool mid- and outlayers but this kind of selection has all but disappeared in the modern sports clothing/gear retailers.

Synthetics do have their place, but are limited to a backpacking, sit by a stove and read by flashlight mentality rather than one that cherishes fire for cooking/shelter and light. In fact you even get folks on this site who seem to think that fires are not allowed anywhere in the world because California and other places seem to be on perpetual fire bans. Synthetic clothing has major shortcomings when it comes to winter and when it comes to close contact with fire. Wool scroungers have to do just that. Finding a classic cotton/anorak for winter is now a specialized item yet functionally these older materials still occupy a niche where they are the best technical solution for certain conditions.

I think in this department we have lost choices owing to UL and synthetic movements. Maybe its all because I'm disappointed that my $17 titanium spork sucks just as badly at picking up noodles from my bowl as the $1.50 plastic ones do....I guess I'm just old school here to. Give me a cheapie stainless fork and spoon any day of the week for eating.

Signed grumpy old bastard....
 
I don’t think so, at least not too much. They can still develop gear, but the UL crowd isn’t going to buy it. I am finding myself shedding gear but not to the extremes of some. I was watching some youtube vids on backpacking meal ideas and one of the suggested videos was a guy on the AT going through someone’s pack and giving them advice on how to go from a 30 lb pack to a 20 lb pack. One of the suggestions was lose the First Aid Kit. Really? If your goal is to cover ground I say dump whatever you want, but I am a sit back and enjoy the trip type. To each their own.

Lots of folks out there still carry heavier gear, but it’s not for the UL crowd. To each their own. I will never drop emergency gear to save weight.
 
I'm considered an "ultra-light" hiker, I guess. Camping like this is only expensive if you make it expensive. My backpack (a simple day pack from Mec) was <$30, for example. My clothing is mostly surplus or thrift store wool. The only expensive piece of gear I own is my sleeping bag, and even that was only like $90 since it was last years model.

Real ultralight hiking is simply minimalism.

High tech, expensive gear made of the latest space age fabrics is completely unnecessary. Bring only what you need, and there is no way your pack will be an uncomfortable weight. There simply wont be enough stuff in it for that to happen. You'll save 2 or 3 pounds by converting all your "cheap" gear to the lighter weight stuff (steel to titanium, wool to fleece, etc), but honestly, is it such an issue going from a 20 pound pack to a 23 pound pack? How about shaving some of the dead weight off your gut instead of wasting 400-500 dollars on gear thats just going to get thrashed up and destroyed anyway?

I'd rather have a cheap basic cook set, cheap clothing, cheap pack, cheap tarp... you get the idea, and NOT have to worry about losing or breaking anything that cost me hundreds of dollars. My pack is still well under 30lbs, and it cost me a fraction of the cost of a true "UL"-ers gear set.

-

An interesting but unrelated note: the knife I currently carry cost me more than EVERYTHING in my backpack combined. Hah. I'm a hypocrite.
 
kgd said:
In the clothing department less options. Try to find some decent wool at REI or Great Outdoors (Bass pro shops etc). Its almost impossible to get aside from a retro-beeny cap or perhaps woolpower baselayer. Cabelas still pumps out some good wool mid- and outlayers but this kind of selection has all but disappeared in the modern sports clothing/gear retailers.

Synthetics do have their place, but are limited to a backpacking, sit by a stove and read by flashlight mentality rather than one that cherishes fire for cooking/shelter and light. In fact you even get folks on this site who seem to think that fires are not allowed anywhere in the world because California and other places seem to be on perpetual fire bans. Synthetic clothing has major shortcomings when it comes to winter and when it comes to close contact with fire. Wool scroungers have to do just that. Finding a classic cotton/anorak for winter is now a specialized item yet functionally these older materials still occupy a niche where they are the best technical solution for certain conditions.

I think in this department we have lost choices owing to UL and synthetic movements. Maybe its all because I'm disappointed that my $17 titanium spork sucks just as badly at picking up noodles from my bowl as the $1.50 plastic ones do....I guess I'm just old school here to. Give me a cheapie stainless fork and spoon any day of the week for eating.

Signed grumpy old bastard....
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I'm all for choices but I own and used to deer hunt in this coat:


http://compare.ebay.com/like/370354...f18053b&itemid=370354086016&ff4=263602_304662

Now I use this one

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabe...ution+fleece&WTz_l=Header;Search-All+Products

The synthetic one is lighter, warmer and also waterproof.
 
One thing a do hate about all this ul gear is the fact most outerwear is made for tall skinny people or short fat people so being 6'7" and and a pretty good size frame I can rarely find quality clothing for my body type
 
I'm thrilled with the range of lightweight equipment available today. Between GPS, dehydrated meals, and lightweight equipment there's really nothing to keep one from the backcountry anymore. I'm sure some view this as a bad thing, as in maybe it's become too easy. I recently read A Death on the Barrens (great book btw) about a deadly 1955 expedition in the Canadian arctic and on every other page are reminders of just how difficult dealing with the equipment and food was in the past. I don't fault today's manufacturers for making it easier and thereby encouraging people to hike then charging a premium for it. I suspect it is otherwise a slowly declining outdoor hobby.
 
I think when we see problems in the backpacking field, that we are only witnessing the teething pains of the UL movement's infancy.

With more innovation and the advancement of the technical art (like 1 or 2lb stoves --> down to 3oz stoves)we'll see the shakeout of all the problems of flimsyness and overpricedness we're all upset by.

So, I'm saying "suffer for 30 more years with the slow pace of progress, and it'll all be better [you grandpas] right before you are too damn old to backpack".
 
question- is the ultralight movement hurting gear development?

no- the ultralight movement is driving backpacking gear development, cottage industries from the US leading the pack (literally :)), even the likes of Kifaru has joined in!

cuben, high loft down, carbonfiber, titanium, new laminates, the list goes on and on- are there some outfits passing off crappy bits as "ultralight"- sure, as has always been the case- caveat emptor

ever see a crappy knife trying to be passed off as a good one? :)
 
kgd said:
In the clothing department less options. Try to find some decent wool at REI or Great Outdoors (Bass pro shops etc). Its almost impossible to get aside from a retro-beeny cap or perhaps woolpower baselayer. Cabelas still pumps out some good wool mid- and outlayers but this kind of selection has all but disappeared in the modern sports clothing/gear retailers.

Synthetics do have their place, but are limited to a backpacking, sit by a stove and read by flashlight mentality rather than one that cherishes fire for cooking/shelter and light. In fact you even get folks on this site who seem to think that fires are not allowed anywhere in the world because California and other places seem to be on perpetual fire bans. Synthetic clothing has major shortcomings when it comes to winter and when it comes to close contact with fire. Wool scroungers have to do just that. Finding a classic cotton/anorak for winter is now a specialized item yet functionally these older materials still occupy a niche where they are the best technical solution for certain conditions.

I think in this department we have lost choices owing to UL and synthetic movements. Maybe its all because I'm disappointed that my $17 titanium spork sucks just as badly at picking up noodles from my bowl as the $1.50 plastic ones do....I guess I'm just old school here to. Give me a cheapie stainless fork and spoon any day of the week for eating.

Signed grumpy old bastard....
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I think synthetics would be here even if everyone still used external framed packs with cast iron pans flopping around. I prefer to take advantage of the best parts of every methodology. I will pack a UL siltarp but you will not find me calling a razor blade wrapped in a bit of duct tape a knife. :barf: As for the anti fire thing? Well don&#8217;t even get me started on that insanity. Unless there is a weather related fire ban I don't agree with any of it.
 
Woods Walker said:
I think synthetics would be here even if everyone still used external framed packs with cast iron pans flopping around. I prefer to take advantage of the best parts of every methodology. I will pack a UL siltarp but you will not find me calling a razor blade wrapped in a bit of duct tape a knife.
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I actually also do like to mix and match. In winter, I like merino wool baselayer, but also prefer a micro-check fleece or 100 wt fleece mid-layer on top of that. Then I use a heavy wool sweater and wool outer shell as outers. I have a few swanndri garments that have wool outers and fleece inners. A great technical combination that provides an outer spark/proof and semi-wind proof (but truly breathable shell) and great warmth and insulation plus light weight. The hybrid thing is great and even prefer them to traditional garments.

However, I hate the all synthetic, spark-tunnel prone outers that are just so prevalent. I have plenty of UL "packable" rain/wind proof shells. They all look like sponges on the sleeves because the smallest spark manges to burrow right through the garment. I have one gortex jacket that has gone from UL to filson tin cloth weight with all the nylon/seam seal patches all over it. Its kind of comical. The Ragedy Andy jacket.
 
Ultralight?

I started hillwalking in Scouts and ROTC.
We were using canvas pup tents, wool clothing, rubberized capes and canvas rucsacks.
Down was too expensive.

Anything after that was 'ultralight'.
Nylon tents, synthetic fill sleeping bags, ripstop cotton, and nylon rain gear was paradise!
So you sweated to death in the raingear, so what...
Folk were sceptical about nylon tents not being as strong as cotton.
Now, you can't find a cotton tent!

Gortex? Waterproof and breathable? One jacket not a wind jacket and raingear!
The ultimate weight saver.
Fleece? So much lighter than wool and you can wring out the water!
New synthetic fabrics are lighter and easier to dry when wet with sweat.

Weight saving is a constant trend in gear.
The difference is that now it is marketed as Ultralight.


But lets be honest, the real ultralight is the knowledge and experience to carry less.
 
neeman said:
But lets be honest, the real ultralight is the knowledge and experience to carry less.
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this seems to be totally lost on a lot of folks, there is a reason, well beyond gear, that people who practice UL carry less gear and carry more in their head- does that sound like any other group? :)
 
We are in a hi-tech society.
Where it is sold and marketed as better.
Millions of dollars of advertizing to shape us.
Want not need.

You have to make a conscious choice not to 'buy' in to it.
Choosing simple can be difficult.

I just purchased two 'hiking' pants and shirts, 100% cotton from Walmarts.
For the same cost of one hiking pants in REI.
I could have saved a couple of grams buying the ultralight
Instead I saved a few dollars
 
neeman said:
Weight saving is a constant trend in gear.
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Nope it's not and has not always been.
Some trend I've seen in the recent period was:
* shifting from aluminium to stainless
* 1000 denier packs covered with Molle bands, daisy chains...
* "feature" packs (could point a bunch of "monster packs" that weight up to 8lbs empty)

So the UL trend is quite refreshing to me that was sort of "underground" at a time and since it has gone mainstream has gathered a lot of marketing BS.
 
michaelmcgo said:
You're almost there. In your last statement you say Weight reductions are a side benefit, but what is happening is these weight reductions (cost savings) are being passed on to the consumer as perks and therefore manufacturing cost are going down while retail cost are going up. My fear is that mainstream manufacturers are piggy-backing on the Ultralight trend to increase the prices of products based solely on a few ounces saved. Unless a product is totally redesigned, it's very difficult to remove weight without sacrificing strength and durability in some way or another.

Ultralight purist companies are actually putting out quality ultralight products. Mainstream companies are modifying existing products to make them lighter, which has varying effects on durability, yet it seems none of the cost savings of making a lighter, cheaper part are being passed on to the consumer.
Click to expand...

I see your fear there - companies are marketing the weight reductions and raising prices to pretend to be in the UL business. In my experience, current price increases (or quality reductions) are due primarily to soaring costs of production both domestic and international.

Agreed on everything else.

I think it will be really interesting when the big name companies truly put effort into creating more UL products.
 
mtwarden said:
question- is the ultralight movement hurting gear development?

no- the ultralight movement is driving backpacking gear development, cottage industries from the US leading the pack (literally :)), even the likes of Kifaru has joined in!

cuben, high loft down, carbonfiber, titanium, new laminates, the list goes on and on- are there some outfits passing off crappy bits as "ultralight"- sure, as has always been the case- caveat emptor

ever see a crappy knife trying to be passed off as a good one? :)
Click to expand...

This is what I believe. I don't believe companies market junk because the UL movement. If the UL movement didn't exist they would just use some other excuse. Companies will do anything to hype their products. Some use the UL movement, some use Bushcrafters and yet others use military/tacticool mall ninjas.

When it all comes down to it, I'd rather have a modern UL loadout then a 60's or 70's era loadout any day of the week.
 
neeman said:
But lets be honest, the real ultralight is the knowledge and experience to carry less.
Click to expand...

I agree with that 100%. While I don't see the new U.L. movement as a bad thing. I can see what the op is talking about to a point.

Top me, the knowledge of GEAR will never make up for the knowledge of the outdoors/skills.

Buy the best U.L. gear, and it will not do squat to save you if you have no idea on how to survive. I.E. orientation, fire making, SAR, ECT.........

Just like the best survival knife will not save you. JMHO......
 
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