Is there a "general" heat treat for unknown steel?

M

Maaso

Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
19
I've searched and searched before joining the forums, so I know what kind of shit I'm going to catch for asking this. But let me explain the situation to the lot of you first....

A work buddy of mine asked me to make a "replica" of a knife from a game. He is the nerdy kind of guy who does something called COSplay where people dress up like their favourite video game or anime characters. Then go stand around with other people, who are also dressed up and talk they about Dungeons-and-Dragons, how powerful their level 25 knight is, or whatever it is they do. And since I build guns on the side he figured I would be the one to make him this knife.

Since this isn't going to be a knife that gets used like a knife, he just told me to put a "mock" edge on and call it good. He is providing me with the steel, but doesn't know what kind it is. I'm not one to half-ass things so I want to make it as "real" as possible. So is there a general heat treat one can do to unknown steel to at least make an attempt to do this right?

Now I know that is a lot of talk just to ask a simple question...but I like being descriptive.
 
I honestly have no idea, I'm assuming it's stainless since he said he has some steel that doesn't rust.
 
Normally I wouldn't reply to a post with no info in the profile, but for the sake of keeping this thread short, here goes.

Welcome to the BF, filling out your profile will help us know more about you and allow a better answer.

Fantasy game knives are not the normal topic here, as the makers here generally make "real" knives.

Either use another piece of steel that you know about.....
or make the KSO and do not try to HT it.

If it is low carbon steel, it won't harden.
If it is a hardenable carbon steel, you don't know the HT parameters, and an attempt may ruin the blade.
If it is a martensitic stainless steel, chances are you do not have the equipment for the HT anyway.
 
bladsmth said:
Normally I wouldn't reply to a post with no info in the profile
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May I ask why? Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT trying to be an asshole or anything. Just curious as to why you need to know about me to give advice on something that doesn't have to deal with me personally.

On that note, thank you for the welcome and I did fill out my profile. I'm thinking I might be here awhile so getting to know me a bit wouldn't hurt.

Anywho, after looking at the prices of steel in the links from the sticky. I'm thinking I might just pass on the HT of this project. But eventually buy some known steel and make myself some cool knives in the future....that is if this project looks anything like the rendering I did.
 
Hi Masso,
Welcome to Blade Forums.
I will try to compare making a knife to gun making. I worked for a company that made rifling tools and gun drills for high end target guns. There is a difference in a rife that is accurate at 1200yrds and one that is dangerous to use.
I also try not to do things half assed, I would rather help you do things the right way.
Start with reading the Sticky's at the top of the page.
Then Start with a Steel that can be heat treated.
Come back and repost your question on your Known Steel.
Sincerely
 
There really isn't a general heat treatment for unknown steel, but if you are just curious and want to try an experiment, try this:

A quick spark test may help give you an idea if it has enough carbon, but you would have to compare the sparks with some steels of known composition, and/or do some preliminary research on spark testing itself.

If you think it might have enough carbon, cut off a small sample, heat it up and find the point where it goes non magnetic, take it up about 100 degrees higher from there, let it soak for 5-10 minutes, quench it in some warm oil and see if or how it responds with some testing. If you are lucky it may actually respond well enough to call it good. If not, then don't waist any more time with it, especially since HT is optional on this project anyway. In the event that the hardening went satisfactorily, then proceed to experiment with the temper.
 
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Maaso said:
May I ask why? Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT trying to be an asshole or anything. Just curious as to why you need to know about me to give advice on something that doesn't have to deal with me personally.

On that note, thank you for the welcome and I did fill out my profile. I'm thinking I might be here awhile so getting to know me a bit wouldn't hurt.

Anywho, after looking at the prices of steel in the links from the sticky. I'm thinking I might just pass on the HT of this project. But eventually buy some known steel and make myself some cool knives in the future....that is if this project looks anything like the rendering I did.
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Since Stacy has answered this question about 1000 times I will answer. We get this question about unknown steel about 100 times a week (seems like anyway). If the person is serious we will attempt to help. One way we know or can get a better idea of how serious they are is if they fill out their profile. This does not guaranty anything but it does show a little of respect for those on this forum. Also if you are a little more specific about your profile you might just get a shop invite. Good luck and have fun with it.
 
Just to keep people guessing (and scratching their heads) I think I will give a go at answering this one;):

Maaso, I could see a problem if you wanted this same advice and planned on selling it as a real knife but since you are straight forward that this isn’t a real knife what is the harm? If it is stainless, just shape the thing and call it good. If it is not, heat it until a magnet stops sticking to it and then quench it into oil, don’t worry about what kind, if it is not a real knife it doesn’t really matter. Once it is cold check it with a file, if the file bites you are done, if the file skates put it in an oven at 400F.
 
... on second thought, maybe there is a general HT for unknown steel,... first you harden it, then you temper it. :)

Even if it isn’t a real knife, you don’t want it to bend or break if you accidentally sit on it or step on it.
 
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A C Richards said:
Since Stacy has answered this question about 1000 times I will answer. We get this question about unknown steel about 100 times a week (seems like anyway). If the person is serious we will attempt to help. One way we know or can get a better idea of how serious they are is if they fill out their profile. This does not guaranty anything but it does show a little of respect for those on this forum. Also if you are a little more specific about your profile you might just get a shop invite. Good luck and have fun with it.
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What Chuck said. Also, if we can read a little of your background, we know how to help with answers. A high school kid will have a much different level of expertise than a 30 year veteran of a tool & die shop. Most folks here are willing to help either, but that help must be framed in very different ways. You mentioned some gunsmithing. Is that a business or a hobby? Again, it helps tune our responses so we don't waste your time or ours.

As to your original question, I'm with the folks here for the most part. If it's a wallhanger only treat it as such and just shape the thing out and call it done. Then, once you've been bitten by the bug (it'll happen, trust me), come back , read up on some of the stickies, call Aldo or Kelly and get some good simple carbon steel to start with and use the extra ass-half left over from your first project to make your first knife for you that much better! :)

-d
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Just to keep people guessing (and scratching their heads) I think I will give a go at answering this one;):

Maaso, I could see a problem if you wanted this same advice and planned on selling it as a real knife but since you are straight forward that this isn’t a real knife what is the harm? If it is stainless, just shape the thing and call it good. If it is not, heat it until a magnet stops sticking to it and then quench it into oil, don’t worry about what kind, if it is not a real knife it doesn’t really matter. Once it is cold check it with a file, if the file bites you are done, if the file skates put it in an oven at 400F.
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If he is going to put his name on it it should be a real knife. No telling where the knife ends up and he would not want it to come back years latteer and bite his knifemaking butt.
 
A. G. Russell said:
If he is going to put his name on it it should be a real knife. No telling where the knife ends up and he would not want it to come back years latteer and bite his knifemaking butt.
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I agree. I'm working on a "wall-hanger" project myself but the client agreed to let me make it from proper steel (440C in this case). It's all ground and at a professional heat-treater as I type this. We agreed on 440C because it's fairly inexpensive as good stainless cutlery steel goes, but still makes a very good blade, is highly corrosion-resistant and can be shined up as pretty as you please.

Even if it doesn't need to keep an edge, if re-enactors get to banging it around (and you know they will ;)) non-martensitic stainless will start looking pretty bad pretty quickly. (scratches, dents, bends etc.)

If performance truly isn't an issue, your friend could probably find a suitable cheap fantasy knife at BudK or SMKW.
 
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Maaso said:
May I ask why? Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT trying to be an asshole or anything. Just curious as to why you need to know about me to give advice on something that doesn't have to deal with me personally.

On that note, thank you for the welcome and I did fill out my profile. I'm thinking I might be here awhile so getting to know me a bit wouldn't hurt.

Anywho, after looking at the prices of steel in the links from the sticky. I'm thinking I might just pass on the HT of this project. But eventually buy some known steel and make myself some cool knives in the future....that is if this project looks anything like the rendering I did.
Click to expand...

Steel is cheap compared to the grinding belts etc. you are going to use. Upcharge the customer for some actual blade steel and what it will cost to get someone to heat treat that steel, (find out who will heat treat what kinds of steel, and how much they will charge, then buy the appropriate steel)
tell the customer that you will not take on a job unless you will actually get paid enough to do a proper job, then get good steel and do it right

-Page
 
A. G. Russell said:
If he is going to put his name on it it should be a real knife. No telling where the knife ends up and he would not want it to come back years latteer and bite his knifemaking butt.
Click to expand...

Of course I agree 100% and that was sort of my more subtle point. Almost everyday we see folks ask similar questions about knives they plan to present as actual users, probably even to sell. Most often we just let it slide to avoid the inevitable flame war, I admit that I don’t go out of my way to get beat up for trying to help such questions these days. But in this case Maaso at least acknowledges the difference, which puts him ahead of many others, even some with established names.
 
Welcome to Bladeforums!

If it sounds like a fun project make it for your buddy. I would make it for the price of materials with the steel he has and he will hopefully return the favor. I wouldn't mess with a heat treat but it probably wouldn't hurt anything, you will learn a few things along the way just by trying.

If your friend is impressed with the knife he may want to buy a better one you make later.

If you don't mind spending more money go ahead and order some steel. Make sure you have decided about heat treat before you order. You will need to send it off for heat treat or do it yourself. Some steels are more appropriate to send off, some are easy to do yourself.

Of course then you are going to want nice handle material, some nice epoxy... a kmg, a kiln... :D :D :D some burl wood... nice files... :D :D :D
 
Whatever you end up doing I would suggest describing it as "quenched in the blood of a virgin standing naked under a full moon and tempered with powdered dragon's claw". ;-)
 
It's panther pee. Jeez guys, get it right!! :D Unicorn urine works too but is slightly more difficult to obtain.
 
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