Is there a "general" heat treat for unknown steel?

Oh, now we're going back the other way... :(

If there isn't a general HT for unknown steel,... I think there should be. :D

I bet if you just follow something like Kevin's or my recipe above,... if the steel has at least .36 carbon and you quench it in some really dirty motor oil, it would at least be good enough to skate a dull file and pass the brass rod test 90% of the time. Hey! What else matters? LOL :D

Stacy, are miniature knives real knives? If so, I think you better make yourself a miniature heat treating furnace and do it right.

... just fun'n. :)
 
james terrio said:
How is it that you always show up whenever someone mentions virgin panthers and unicorns? It's uncanny :D
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... you mean you don't know?

I‘m an enchanted imp... from a far away galaxy called Goo. I’ve assumed human form so I could become a master bladesmith and make the world a kinder and gentler place for all.

How is it that you guys make all these scientific threads about me?
 
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I tend to agree with Kevin more, when he's being a bit sarcastic,... and likewise I'm sure. :)

(... Tai getting ready for a nap in his toroidal isolation pod.)
 
Tai Goo said:
I‘m an enchanted imp... from a far away galaxy called Goo. I’ve assumed human form so I could become a master bladesmith and make the world a kinder and gentler place for all.
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That explains quite a bit, actually ;)
 
What really gets me is that, we can put a man on the moon and do all sorts of wonderful and amazing things,… but we still can’t come up with a good general heat treat for unknown steels.

What’s up with that?

… Where are all the scientists when you need them?

You can always try work hardening if all else fails. :)
 
I think one should use a "general" heat treatment on "general" steel. For "unknown" steel one must use an "unknown" heat treatment. It just makes sense to me that way. ;-)

- LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
Haha, all this unicorn and virgin talk makes it sound like the lot of you play Dungeons-and-dragons too....

I think I'm going to go with the plan Kevin mentioned, like he and I said; this isn't a "real" knife that will be used daily like a real knife. But that doesn't mean I can't go the extra mile.
 
deker said:
You mentioned some gunsmithing. Is that a business or a hobby?
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It's just a hobby I do mainly for myself, mostly what I do is trigger work, accurizing, barrel swaps, etc. Plus I buy up any and all AK kits I find and slap together an AK in a day or two. Other than that I do a lot of "external" work for a few friends and acquaintances. That consists of stock making/bedding and sight installation.

By day I build engines all day for an engine remanufacturer, and by night I'm a full-time medical student.

By the way, I'm only 25 so some of you might consider me a "kid" but I've been doing the above since I could shoot a gun without my dad helping me. So all in all I'd say more than 75% of my life.
 
Tai Goo said:
What really gets me is that, we can put a man on the moon and do all sorts of wonderful and amazing things,… but we still can’t come up with a good general heat treat for unknown steels.

What’s up with that?
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Because when we blast a guy into space, we know and understand almost all the variables involved. With mystery metals... not so much. And that's all I'm going to say about that, we've hijacked this poor fellow's thread enough already!
 
Maaso,
Thanks for filling out your profile. With the info provided, I know that you are most likely not a kid who plans on building a bond fire and doing the HT in it,.... then running around the neighborhood with his buds playing Gandolf.
As said by the others, one of the biggest piece of info shown is your location. Often a near by smith will chime in and offer a piece of steel, or a shop visit to do the HT when he sees that you live in or near his town. Without that info, you could be in Estonia, and telling you to get something from TKS, or send it to Paul Bos would be useless.

Kevin's info on the basic " get it non-magnetic and quench in oil" is the only "general" HT that can be used on unknown steel. You don't know if it will work, or how well it will work, so the result can be a problem.

Your question can be paraphrased to show the problem with it:
"Is there a general surgery for an unknown medical problem?"

Some will say, whatever amount it hardens is OK, but there is more to it beyond the HT. The steel will be changed by the heating and quench stress. It may make it harder, or weaker, or put micro-cracks in the blade, or change the character of the steel in some way. All this may lead to a blade that could break in some use that could cause injury. If you say to a person, " I hardened it as best I could, but don't know how good it is." All they will hear is , "It is hard." They will assume it is second only to Excalibur, and chop on trees and try and kill dragons, .......well, you see where it could end up. A good friend might get BBQed by a dragon because your blade failed him.

Tai,
All of my miniatures that have steel blades are full hardened and tempered. ...and I make miniature sheaths for many of them,too.
You were joking about the mini HT setup, but I have a small anvil and hammers as light as .25oz. I often use an old single flask burnout oven with a 4X4X4" chamber to do the HT in.

Maaso, stick around, you will get to know this bunch of reprobates and realize we are not all that bad......well some of us are, but the rest try and keep a rope on those folks.
Welcome again.
 
I hear you Stacy, but,... I think there is a general surgery for unknown medical problems,... just remove the problem with a knife. LOL

Seriously,... the best way to deal with unknowns is to get to know them first. That's were science comes in. If you consider doing the science yourself a waste of time, then you can almost always just throw some money at the problem for a quicker easier solution. The only problem with the later, is you really don't learn as much.
 
bladsmth said:
...Kevin's info on the basic " get it non-magnetic and quench in oil" is the only "general" HT that can be used on unknown steel. You don't know if it will work, or how well it will work, so the result can be a problem...
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Prior to the 19th century steel was as close to monolithic sameness as it will ever get, but alloying changed everything, each unique chemistry requires it own unique treatment, we can try to ignore this but it cannot be denied.

This thread causes us to deal with all kinds of fascinating issues, the least of which actually deal with steel. As per the thread topic, of course there is a “general heat treatment” for unknown steel, as I have already described, and we encounter it all the time in our business- heat to non-magnetic and plunk it in any convenient oil, if it skates a file or flexes over a rod, you are good to go. What more can you do if you don’t even know what metal you are working? And most of those who use this recipe do know what metal they are using and still adhere to it.

The much more interesting question is, why is it that if this is done on a blade stamped with an M.S.* it is admirable and accepted unquestioningly, but the shortcomings suddenly become self evident for a guy like Maaso?

To be honest, I gave my out of character initial answer out of fundamental fairness, and I post this follow up to explain it and point out the real paradox of this thread. Since Maaso has his answer I think my part in the thread is completed.


* I only use the M.S. as it is the most efficient way to convey esteem in our business, feel free to insert any well known or revered maker that has no qualms with using, or teaching, unknown metals and the same general heat treatment.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
The much more interesting question is, why is it that if this is done on a blade stamped with an M.S.* it is admirable and accepted unquestioningly, but the shortcomings suddenly become self evident for a guy like Maaso?
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I think the MS stamp is essentially the same as any other title or degree. All it really means is that you’ve passed a certain course or curriculum from a recognized institution, but doesn’t guarantee that you will be successful in the real world. In the real world things are much different and you are more or less on your own. I suppose that degrees and titles are often misused and/or misunderstood. However, just because an MS teaches the file skate test and the brass rod test to newbies etc., doesn’t necessarily mean that they don’t understand the shortcomings, are being dishonest or misleading, or that they don’t take the whole process of blade testing a few steps further themselves.

Maybe I’m a bit naive but I think, by far, most of the instructors in the craft of bladesmithing are good people just trying to help as best they can, (although we seldom agree on every point). Yet, there always seems to be a few bad eggs who spoil it for the rest. However, rather than falsely accusing the innocent, if at all possible, I like to "try" and am learning how to give people the benefit of the doubt and not make too many assumptions based on my own biases. :)

The simple little drama we create in our own minds and convince ourselves of is rarely anywhere close to reality...
 
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Dang, Tai, are you going soft on us?:confused:

Good comments from all.:D
I think it is the blend of points of view that makes this site so good. I agree that there are some who will only see it their way, regardless of any other possibility.
 
Stacy, I'm just getting older. :)

I personally don’t see why some folks are making such a big fuss over the file skate test and the brass rod test. As long as those tests and ALL in shop testing is kept in perspective, there really isn’t a problem. However, when these types of tests get blown out of proportion from either side of the fence,... problems usually arise.

... don't we have better things to do?
 
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bladsmth said:
Maaso,
Your question can be paraphrased to show the problem with it:
"Is there a general surgery for an unknown medical problem?"
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Well....being that metallurgy has evolved over the years to what it is now; I can say the medical field has as well.

-In ancient Egypt garlic was the remedy used for anything from colds to surgery.
-200 years "road-side tonics" were the be all-cure all for any ailment.
-About 50 years ago shock therapy was believed to cure anything...literally anything.
-Nowadays people are "green" and hippy-like. So herbal remedies are making come back.
 
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