Is there any hope

ok should it be
AKS or AKA.
im pumped about this. also s or no s. i think i like the s
 
The name is closenough for now,you can figure that out better later.Now yu need to get together with some people with legal experiance and such and figure out all the rules and bylaws and what the society will stand for,in otherwords get all the structure done and the name will fall in place,as you will have to do some reserch just to make sure no one is using that name or some close to it,and do you really want it only American or maybe a world wide society(just a thought)...Good Luck with this project-I for one will be watching and hoping it does good,this just may be the ticket to shake up the knifemaking community.
Bruce
 
The problem I have with "QA" type organizations is that there is no way to be sure that the testing standards apply to all of the knives being put out. Getting an ABS stamp means that A. Guys in the ABS like your knives and B. You can pass their tests with *a* knife. Most members admit that this is not the standard that they make all of their knives to, because it's not what a general purpose knife needs, it's what an ABS test knife needs.

If you're going to have a stock removal organization who gives a quality stamp, what standards are you going to apply? Will certain steels be required? Will proprietary steels be disallowed? What steel will you base your standards off of?

Now, after all of this, who is to say that the makers in this organization won't do exactly the same thing as the ABS, make a test blade to your standards and then make their other blades however they want? If they are doing this, what is the point in having the stamp?

Anyways, the point is, unless your testing every knife, the standards mean little. On top of that, who is to say which knives should be allowed and which should not? If a high-end art knife is made with a 420 blade is it not worthy of being in the organization? It won't hold an edge as well as S30V after all.

I like the idea behind the Guild, your knives are peer reviewed, other makers decide if your knives have what it takes and sign your application. Before you can even submit you've got to have the confidence of four guild members. Of course there are valid complaints about Guild entry, but at the end of the day I'd rather be judged on what *I* make and not on how well I make something that other knifemakers want.
 
I am ignorant of the guild or how they operate. Perhaps the Guild can take this on?!?.
Perhaps the AKS/AKA/WSK could have a peer review as part of the admission process
as well a testing processs. I like the peer review aspect! You never appreciate how hard
something to do well is till you try to do it yourself
 
The reason for the one knife cut and bend test is a test of a makers skill to prove that he CAN differentially heat treat his steel of choice and make it pass this test,That doesnt mean yu have to do all your knives that way it just says yu have the knowledge.Then you have 5 knives judged by your peers (5 master smiths) and if they do not pass the grade you will not get a stamp,they let you know real quick if you left a mistake somewhere,these are supposed to be your best work up to that point and then you should go on from there,but you have to make what sells also,you wont get a MS or even a JS quality blade cheap...anybody that thinks it would be easy to pass these tests and the judging should go visit a master and put their knives to the test (forged or stock removal)The ABS has a certain set of things they check for on the knives and if ou mess anything up your out,they will judge everything you do to the knives and it all better be dead on......

These are things to think about as you will have to have some way of judging work to give a rating....some people will not agree with what ever you choose,but make it fair and worthy of the ratings and stick to it.

Good Luck,
Bruce
 
I have been thinking allot about this all day and I am convinced it what we need. As for the tests they could be more directed in type. Like there could be one test for your basic Master Knifemaker stamp but you could continue to get other tests for like a Master in folders or master in art. there are so many directions that it could go and to group everything under one category like master knifemaker is ok but that maker could make the best fixed blades in the world but make crap for folders. Also about the steel they use, It would not be restricted that just defeats the whole reason we started this. The tests would be adjusted accordingly per steel selected. I would not expect a 440c knife to pass the same test as say a CPM 10V:) (I love this steel by the way).
There should be categories for the knives so that they receive a fair test. The resion I want to get a name so soon is so I can get a web site and keep things updated. I like the idea of not restricting to just America, worldwide is ok but it needs a different word. Like this, are you ready for it

International Knifemakers Association

That seems to fit the bill quite nicely and the site could be

www.InternationalKnifemakers.com

The site will have all kinds of stuff; this is a list I jotted down at work.

1. Forum
2. Profiles
3. Events
4. How-to
5. Links
6. Contact
7. Register
8. About
9. Tests
10. News letter
11. Photo gallery
12. Charity

It’s just some ideas but I think the site should have tons of info. I also think the site should keep track of all JK and MK so some one can look up there name and see pictures of the knife they used to pass the tests with some words on there test and other pictures of there work. Each maker would have a page on the site that they could Wright something up about them selves and put some pictures. Also there would be emails accounts for the AK, JK, and MK and it would be like JarodTodd@InternationalKnifemakers.com. There are so many doors for us to open we just need to open them.
 
The tests would be adjusted accordingly per steel selected.
I will be interested to see how that works out,how can you tell someone they don't have to pass the same blade toughness tests as another maker because he uses a different steel. To me that doesn't sound fair to all. The ABS has equal tests that each and every maker has to pass regardless of what steel the maker choses to use. I know this is just in the thinking stages, but remember it must be equal that all have to participate and pass in the same perfomance tests. Or someones going to get mighty upset when a bread slicer passes and a wood chopper fails.

AcridSaint, I like the idea behind the Guild, your knives are peer reviewed, other makers decide if your knives have what it takes and sign your application. Before you can even submit you've got to have the confidence of four guild members. Of course there are valid complaints about Guild entry, but at the end of the day I'd rather be judged on what *I* make and not on how well I make something that other knifemakers want

Sounds a lot like the ABS to me,if you don't make what the 4 guild members like, you don't get the application. In the ABS if you don't make a knife that 5 members think most suitable for a working knife you don't pass. Sounds like in both organizations you have to make a knife that your peers think is a good working knife in their opinions. Once you've shown you have that knowledge then you can produce whatever you wish, not any difference or am I misunderstanding something.

Bill
 
all im saying about steel varable tests is that like a car race you would not enter a geo in a viper race. that would not be fair. the tests need to be equal to the steel being tested to make shure its reached its full potenchel. higher end steel should beable to do more so why not test for that
 
OK, Journeyman Smith and Master Smith are great targets in and of themselves in the ABS. Also if you make ABS Master Smith, the Knifemakers' Guild, will appreciate that achievement to go to Voting Member of the Knifemakers' Guild without a probationary period.......out of courtesy and appreciation of your achievement as a MS of the ABS.

JT, I am a dues paying member of the ABS...as an "apprentice", mainly because I respect the forging Bladesmith and want to support that organization at least with dues....I will probably never be a Jouneyman Smith or Master Smith of the ABS...I don't live in a neighborhood where I can be a "metal mangler"...heck some didn't like my stock Harley's noise........but I am as stock removal maker....and a voting member of the Guild....and I do make what I want to make.....liner-locked folders and traditional slipjoints, both in collector grade and using grade.

You may well want to stay a stock removal maker and aim at getting involved in the Guild. If you want to achieve the ABS designations of Journeyman and the Master Smith....do what qualifies you for those designations, but you gottA BE A FINE "METAL MANGLER".
Participation in either or both organizations, regardless of designation, could well be a good experience.

I speak from my personal experiences, and personal opinion. They are both fine organizations.
 
Hi Bill et al. I wanted to quickly comment that I wasn't trying to go after the ABS or make the guild seem better, sorry if I came off that way.

As to the difference between the memberships, where I think the difference is in the peer review process. I can make my knives how I choose, in any style I choose and bring them to any member of the guild talk to them, show them my knives, etc and then ask if they'd sponsor my application. This doesn't put me in a situation where a specific four guys have to like my style of work. As long as four people in the Guild have reviewed my work and say it's something they'll put their name in with, that's good enough.

Nothing wrong with getting judged by the ABS of course, and I'm not trying to say that anyone can pass the test or the judging. Just saying that having an ABS stamp doesn't mean every knife you sell is quality controlled, neither does having a Guild stamp. When I said I liked the idea of peer review, it meant I like it more than having some standard test, especially in the context of stock removal where a standardized test could easily become completely inbalanced.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I think I could have worded my first post a bit better.
 
They won't hear you, and will not accept you, no matter how many passionate petitions you send. I'm sorry to say it, but this has been my experience with the A.B.S. and stock removal/removers. A Journeyman's or Master's stamp would mean more to me than a PHD from any school or combination of schools, but I'll never see it.

Closest you can get is an Associate Member, which means you can pay them 30$ every year. No offense to people that are that passionate about knife collecting or supplying knife makers, but it's entirely a slap in the face to someone who's made cutlery for years. I'm not renewing. They are very stubborn, and it is honestly very insulting. /rant off
 
thats why i think this such a good idea. the ABS has tradisions to keep and thats fine thats why thay started. but we can form somthing that does not have to be strict but still means as much as a ABS stamp. tests will be very tuff but aproch them as you like using what you want. the tests have to be hard so thay get respect. now i had to face this question and now i turn it to you. dues a a yearley fee. it would include your own page on the site as well as an email address.
 
also a page with your test progress. also if people want a for sale page you would beable to sell. ther will also be a forum. and much more. this is all just ideas but the hosting is going to cost money and lots of time to keep it all updated. the yearly fee could buy a nice prize for the most deserving knifemaker like a grinder. i also think it would be good to donate some to a good fondation. we can do classes and demos. please post your ideas.
 
Well the thing about the A.B.S. and the Knifemakers Guild is that they are recognized and respected organisations. A Master Smith is pretty impressive, I look up to that; it means not only is he/she very good, but all of their peers acknowledge their expertise too. I understand that Bladesmithing is in the title of their group, but I don't see why they can't recognize a group of knifemakers without nessecarily endorsing them.

Another independant guild would be a good idea, but it would take years to achieve prestige. A guild that covered a broad range of products and methods would be cool. Everything that you could fabricate maybe? Running something like that is a lot of work, and eventually you'd have to narrow things down (I get it, I get it).
 
JT, your plan is ambitious, but perhaps establishing a basic core of values and protocols should come before plans of individual webpages and what to do with the annual budget. Don't get me wrong, the forums and the prizes and all that are really, really cool, but unless you plan on running every aspect of the organization for as long as it will exist, some sort of bylaws are necessary.
 
AcridSaint, no no no, I wasn't offended at all, I was just stating that both organizations really aren't that different if your work has to be judged by active members and they have the last say as to weather your in or out.
I agree with you about the ABS requiring you to submit knives for judging that meet their ideas of what a knife should look and be like, but they only ask that you do this with 5 judging knives so you can show your capable of making the types of knives they prefer. After that you can produce whatever style you wish. Its really no different then taking a test at school, the teachers make up the rules for you to follow and to test your knowledge by, once you show you have the knowledge to do the work and graduate, your welcome to go down whatever path you chose.

I will also say for me anyway, that having the ABS stamp does mean more quality control for every knife. I have always produced the best I could, but now I really look at every detail closer and closer. Maybe some others don't look at it that way but the time, energy, NERVES and expense needed to obtain those stamps is quite an under taking and once its acheived I think that people look at your work closer and if its not up to the standards expected from having that stamp the public will let everyone know. Getting the JS stamp was one of the most nerve racking things I've ever done,more so then I could have ever imagined, and its something that I'm really proud of and I think all those that were there this year and received their JS and MS rankings are just as proud as I am. I'm not saying anything bad about anyone that doesn't have a stamp, doesn't want a stamp or could ever care about having a stamp, it was just a personal self-achievement thing for me.

Happy knifemaking,

Bill
 
Regarding the ABS stamp and quality control, I've a stupid question. Does the organization act as a sort of BBB for custom knifemakers? I'm sure most makers stand behind their work 100%, but say there is a flaw in the workmanship that may have escaped the maker's eye that later caused an unexpected failure. If there was a dispute between the customer and the smith, would the ABS have grounds to mediate it? Furthermore, I'm sure most smiths don't enter into agreements they can't make good on, but would the ABS be able to place sanctions on a bladesmith that is violating his or her agreements?
 
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