Is there such a thing as being too minimalist?

psy-ops

psy-ops

Joined
Sep 27, 1999
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I have been backpacking quite a bit. I have done some minimalist backpacking as well. I am always looking for lighter gear but there definitely seems to be a philosophy that some minimalists espouse which is ultra light for ultralight's sake.

My gear for a 3-4 day hike is around 35lbs. I take a bunch of knives and sometimes a gun. Could I go with a 20 lbs and survive, yes. However, I think it is important to have the right gear. Another point, I see long hikes as fitness opportunities which push my body, carrying that extra 15-20 lbs. has made me fitter.


Some recent posts have mentioned about being under knifed and some have spoken about only taking folders. I think that that issue is part of the minimalist approach. Is it not better to have tools that could make life a bit easier? I am not talking about taking a gas powered log splitter but how much difference is it to add a 1lbs hatchet to your gear?
 
Is there such a thing as being cold, wet, and hungry? I have slept in mud, so I would say yes, you can go too light. I think I've struck a pretty good balance now. If I carry 25 lbs of gear it's because I'm planning on being comfortable and well fed. Typical is about 15 - 18 lbs. Mac
 
I can understand going into the woods with just a knife and firesteel to test your limits and hone your skills, but just to save weight? No thanks. I like being warm, dry, and comfortable, and don't want to have to chop down half the forest to make sure I stay that way. My gear is usually around 15-20 lbs.
 
On one backpacking trip I decided to go a little light, among other items I left behind my therm-a-rest. I'd slept without a mat before and figured I'd be fine. Turned out all of the backcountry campsites had prepared sleeping platfoms and usage was mandatory. Also turned out they were gravel filled sleeping platforms.

Amazing what five days of lousy sleep can do to an otherwise perfect outdoor experience.

I've pretty much given up on minimalism. Although I'm always receptive to 'the same - but lighter weight' gear.

Some people may enjoy going ultralight or doing things like speed hiking. After a bit of experimentation I've learned these are not for me.
 
My pack used to weight 10-12# and now with the newly added comfort items, it's over 20#. Still not a lot of weight to haul and I like the idea of having a good tent and bag with me.
 
The only real difference between 3 days and 7 days is food and water. If you get down to 30 lbs for a week, you're very good. A lot depends on the activity and if you are with anyone. Can you keep up? Do you have to carry some of their gear? As I mentioned elsewhere, those who spend a lot of time at it don't skimp on the pad, some even use two. A good sleep pays off the next day.

Also, bulk is important, close to the body helps balance, the reason internal packs are preferred for off trail. Externals are good for trail travel (and hot temps) where the weight can be carried a little higher, lean forward a little less to center the weight. It's not just the strength to carry the weight, but also sore spots where the weight presses and chafes shoulders and hips, increases load on feet and blisters, etc. Just like firearms, it's not just the extra pound, but an extra pound carried on a shoulder or held in your arms that has a telling effect at the end of the day. It often makes the difference between fun and torture.:) Regards, ss.
 
IMHO Yes I think there is a point where to save ounces people go into the woods underprepared for emergency situations. I remember meeting one guy who was thru hiking the AT and was stuck up in a shelter in the smokies because he thought the bad weather was over (It was early enough they had literally just opened the road to Newfound Gap that day from winter) and got hit by a snowstorm without his winter clothes and sleeping bag. He just had longjohns, spring clothes and a blanket. I know that there are many people saved regularly throughout the US because they go into the mountains or desert in the summer thinking it will be hot and end up with hypothermia because they get stuck out at night.

I understand shaving weight on essentials but I don't believe in leaving behind life saving gear or necessary equipment just to save a few ounces thinking that you can "get by." I hike a 4.5 mile loop in a state park about every week and I still take a psk, a daypack, some water and a jacket. Why? I could get hurt and have to be out there overnight. It is a short trail that is easily accessible by park attendants but if I break a leg or a limb falls on me I want to have some idea that I can take care of myself while immobile until help shows up. I could save a pound or two but my life is worth more.

Sorry rant mode turned off.
 
I've been a student of ultralight hiking for a couple years and some of the gear lists are a little foolhardy to me. As other's have said here, you need to be prepared for a realistic range of weather and mishaps. I've seen one gear list after another that lists a few bandaids and some moleskin for a first aid kit. I have mine pared down to about 6 ounces and that's about as far as I want to go. I do have some basic meds like Benedry, Immodium, Ibuprofen, and hydrocortizone, and I carry sunscreen, bug repellent and alcohol gel hand cleaner-- all decanted into small containers for shorter hikes.

PSK's are kind of fun to see what you can get in a small light package. Adding a little snare wire and some fishing goodies isn't going to break the scales. I have several different fire starters, duct tape, razor blades, etc. My most basic PSK is some sort of lanyard with whistle, mirror, compass, firesteel, micro LED light, and a small knife or multi-tool.

On day hikes, I carry a small PSK, an Adventure Medical bivy, water purfication tablets, and my knife-- along with the recommended essentials, extra clothing layer, food, etc. That doesn't take much and it will all fit in a hydration pack that has a little extra cargo space.

Where I see most people getting in trouble is they go without map or compass and no one knows where they are. Add those omissions to having no overnight gear and you might be a bad statistic.
 
Depends...This weekend I took the kids and wife camping. Of course this may be off topic a little but when I take the kids and wife camping I take what we need and then some, just to be on the safe side especially with my 2 small kids. When I was camping I did the cooking etc. I only ate once a day and fairly small meal. I was hydrated enough.

But, for me and I know what I can handle and what I can't, I needed very little of anything. The wife was cold as could be at night even all bundled up. I was quite comfortable in fact, she went to bed with the kids in the tent and I stood up quite late by the fire of course drinking some coors, but it all depends on the individual I guess. Honestly I have never did a 3-4 day hike. What comes to mind is comfort. How comfortable does one want to be, because a determined human being can survive with very little, nothing new and nothing fancy. My main concern is water, if I have enough, where to find it and how to purify it. I can eat squirrel, fish etc. My second concern is fire method, my 3rd concern is warmth/shelter. I have an old 70's aluminum frame pack with a pup tent roll up on the lower back end. The pack is light and it does not hold a whole lot. But If I take that, All I really need is a warm blanket or thin sleeping bagt--thus my weight. But I have a small psk that contains what I need to be comfortable with. So it goes back to what ever is comfortable for a person to feel the security of being able to survive. WE are all different and have different needs.

On another note, I bought a $20 Ontario knife 12'' machete to try out. I have to say I liked it. I had to put the file to it but it split wood alot easier than I usually do it. This knife made things easier, I think this will accompany me when I go out more. I also brought along a cheap #7 hatchet from ACE hardware...this thing sucked! I found It did little by way of the Ontario Knife machete and the head to was dull. I wanted to try these out to see what worked best for me. I liked the Ontario machete better, cheap and functional. But then again spending more than seven dollars would get a better product:-)
 
It's all relative. Few of us are willing or able to run around the Amazon in a loincloth and machete like a native. Many folks are unwilling to give up broadband and cell reception. Everyone draws a line for themselves.
 
We could categorize three kinds of pack to take:

1. Minimalist. Only the barest essentials, on the assumption all goes well. On a day hike, a large lumbar pack with twin water bottles might do it. Add in some food, fire, and first aid. These are the people who feel they can survive underestimating conditions.

2. Lightweight. Only what you need under worst conditions in that area to get back to civilization. This would vary depending on what "worst" means where you are and at what time of year.

3. Car camping. :) Or a few people with big packs, bringing toys along with the basics. Not necessarily the safest, because many people doing this forget that if they are too far off the beaten track, help can be hard to come by.
 
I would say yes and no. Although I have not been backpacking before I would say that If you feel comfortable with 5 lbs. of gear great, good for you although if you aren't comfortable without 40 lbs. of gear thats fine to. I think it is all personal preference.
 
i carry as little as i can possibly get by with. when exploring or bumming around in the two or three acres of woods behind my house, i carry my EDC knife and my 1.5# axe. i also have a lighter or a ferro rod in my pocket. in the summer, if i do somehow get lost and stranded after dark, i figure i am pretty much safe to just go to sleep under a tree. but then again i would have a pretty tough time getting lost in the woods behind my house, especially considering that if i walked in any direction for long enough i would come to a road that i am familiar with and could follow home.

for a day hike, i carry a folding knife, my little axe, water and food. an extra layer of clothes, including a poncho depending on the forecast and destination also almost always come for a ride.

for longer trips, it really depends on my destination. if i am going into the mountains, i bring plenty of extra gear. if it is the middle of the summer and i am going where i know the area fairly well, i don't bring as much with me. but i always have my folder and my hatchet. really, i could stand to lose the folder. i have split logs up to about 6 inches thick with my hatchet, hewed planks for a stool, cut pegs for said stool, cut poles for a travois to drag the firewood out of the woods, whittled tent stakes, made a pile of wood shavings and a pile of chips for getting a fire started. in fact, around the house or in the woods, i rarely use anything but my small axe for most cutting.

but i agree with others, that it has alot to do with personal comfort level. i personally don't particularly mind getting rained on, i can go inside and dry off when i am done. i don't mind sleeping on the ground, i can dust off and get a good night's sleep when i am home.

another person might have trouble sleeping with anything less than a feather pillow and a three inch thick sleeping pad, with plenty of blankets.
 
I've come to this point myself. I keep trying to save a little here and a little there and although I like being minimalist I still carry what I think woud get me by in the absolute worst scenario. I was actually shocked when I took my pack to work to weigh it and it was only 7 1/2 pounds. :eek: At that point I realized that I need to stop taking stuff out. :D Of course that's a day hike bag. If I had overnight gear that would probably push it to 20 pounds, 25 conservatively. The only thing I can do now is replace gear with lighter equivalents. I'm not sure each pound is worth a 100 bucks though. Maybe if I ease into it.
 
When I first started backpacking in early high school, I was carrying everything but the kitchen sink. A lot of them were legitimate items (not stoves and lanterns and such) but they were all very cheap items from places like Meijer and weighed a lot. Pretty sooned I learned that the $7 hatchet that couldn't cut bark wasn't worth carrying, and that there were better ways to procure water than to carry 4 liters in on my back.

By now I've switched my pack to a smaller one (I originally carried an external frame Jansport Ranier) and have found which items work for me. Not a saw and hatchet and shovel, but just a quality hatchet and fixed blade knife. Not 4 L of water, but 2 L and some chlorine tabs. Not 100 ft of bulky nylon cord, but 50 of paracord. Not a 4 lb tent, but a tarp.

The best way to trim a pack is to take what you want on a few trips, and then ditch what doesn't get used. You'll also see which items were nice but way too heavy, and can begin to spend money to shave weight.

To an extent, having more skills means carrying less weight. Once you can build decent shelters, you might not have to bring a tent. If you can cleanly baton, you might not want that hatchet. But I also don't want to turn every outing into a 'survival' excursion. I'm out there to enjoy myself, not push myself to the brink of destruction (though that can be fun sometimes, too!).


To finally get to a clean answer, I do agree that one can go to far and end up being dangerously under-prepared for problems/emergencies by trimming essentials like first aid kits or emergency kits. Even the nature of certain ultra-light gear makes them a good bit less tough/durable and ought to make one more conscientious of the unknown. The sacrifices to get down to those weights are not acceptable for me personally. I like my Fiskars, I like my steel cooking pot rather than titanium, I like my beefy first aid kit.

[The most dangerous sin that ultra-light folks seem to make is that of not taking a good fixed blade into the woods on extended excursions. An Opinel or SAK are good blades, but just can't 'do it all'. That's for me, though.]
 
I think one can be too minimalist.

I pack/prepare differently depending on the group dynamics, area, season etc.

I would not go out completely caveman w/o a safety plan/signal/time limit of some sort.
 
Chrisaloia - first off, I love these kind of posts. Sure get to see lots of different opinions.

**** this is too long, sorry, but I was trying to make a point****
Regarding weight, generally I like to be light. However, to shave off ounces by cutting all the tags out of the clothing, and removing the zipper pull strings, and cutting off all extra web tabs, shortening the extra material not used in a seam.....seems a bit overboard for me, but I know some Ultra light guys like that stuff. Though, most of those guys are seriously in shape and don't need to drop 15lbs of fat like I do.

The biggest problem I see with trying to compare gear lists, is that the definitition of "having the right gear" and "being comfortable" mean very different things to almost everyone.

An example - on a mountaineering trip where I can hike/scramble to a hut (with 8km of travel and 900m elevation gain) for an overnight stay using their fuel, cooking gear and sleeping pads - I will travel really light. Just some food, clothing and my boots, with a very small 2" folder (because I like to whittle stuff when sitting around at the hut) and a roll of fabric tape for a first aid kit. Because of the terrain, I wear a climbing helmet.

Now, if I spend the night there, then climb a mountaineering objective the next day with another 600m gain, with 5km travel - I basically bring the same stuff as above, with the addition of crampons and a mtn axe. No harness...might bring a length of 8mm dia. rope, maybe not, depends on conditions

However, if I am not soloing thate route and am taking guests with me, then I carry a more comprehensive first aid kit (so I can truly "care for" my guest) - I bring some rock gear (pitons, hammer, maybe some nuts) - I bring a full 60m long rope, harness, etc.....oh, and I will have also carried up a couple of cans of beer to the hut with me for a treat. I will have brought chocolate bars with me (good for karma) and I will have done a complete gear and pack check of my guests. I will have removed all the fixed blades, 4 knives, 3 extra sets of camera batteries, 3 pairs of undies, whole rolls of toilet paper, pillows, gameboys, and whatever else they have brought along with the thinking that, "it's only a few ounces"...when in reality, those ounces will feel like pounds in a couple of hours - and really aren't necessary. If they still want to carry that stuff, they can feel free, but I will point out the physical misery they will probably feel.

In both instances, I feel that I am bringing the right gear to be safe, and I am "comfortable and well fed"

For your comparison, the last time I did this trip solo, I met two people. One man and one woman who were going to climb the mountaineering route after staying in the hut. They brought enough clothes to have a full change each, plus extra food and enough gadgets to start their own Walmart.....and they felt safe and comfortable. We were in the same general physical condition, but I took less than half the time they did to climb to the hut. Because of all the gear they carried, a knee injury was aggravated making the next day's climb out of the question.....and they were no longer safe, happy nor comfortable as they had a really tough day downclimbing to the hiking trail. The guy had to carry almost all the gear with the woman inching down the slope.

As you can see ---- it all depends.

sorry that was so long and rambling, but I get a real kick out of these discussions on what is mandatory vs nice to have. Particularily with the BF audience who love knives and bug-out bags, PSK's, etc.
 
You'll find as you get older, that lightening the load when ever possible is a good idea. If you've been doing the backpacking thing for a while you experiment. (one place to not skimp is on a sleeping pad, unless you are SURE of good debris to make a bed out of)

I've been using a 20 yr old REI +20 bag for years (Polarfill) and just this last weekend, I took a good look at the down bags coming out, and they are feather light in comparison and lower rated in temp. They also compress a hell of a lot better. Just can't afford one right now.....

At this point though, to be comfortable, I still take at LEAST 25lbs of gear, not counting food.

Clint Hollingworth
The Wandering Ones webcomic
http://www.wanderingones.com
 
Yes. And it varies from one individual to the next and from one environment to the next. Gaining knowledge, experience and skills goes a long way toward lightening a person's load. Deciding that certain "comfort items" are unneeded, and learning to improvise rather than carry manufactured goods helps too. Some folks should never go into the wilderness without a fully provisioned Shasta motorhome. Some do quite well humping hundred pound, fifty pound, or twenty five pound packs. A few would rather pare that down to five or ten pounds when climate, environment, and length of trek allow.

The trick to lessening your load is in learning the difference between what you want to take as a "security blanket", and what you really need to take. Can't navagate without a GPS? Learn it. Like reading books in the woods? Learn to read the woods. Think you have to keep up a civilized caloic intake? Which of us could not stand to shed a few pounds. Like to take a large assortment of gizmos "just in case"? Learn how to deal with the circumstance with fewer gizmos, innovate with multi-use items.

I am not suggesting that anyone here leave behind all the froo-fraw that makes them feel comfortable and safe. I am suggesting that you, bit at a time, examine and internalize what your comfort requires. Or keep adding to your pack if that is what floats your boat albeit a bit lower in the water.:D

'Ol Codger
 
Chrysaloia, that is what turned me off of Ultralighters. I think they have fine ideas, but that eventually you get to a point where there is no safety. To my mind, not taking any water because there is supposed to be some 6 miles ahead is not safe. There is no room for error.

I do think that lighter can be safer, as there is less cause for injury, as was mentioned earlier.

Figure out what you need, and then what you may need. Then lighten that up as much as you can. If you see the need for an axe/machete/saw, get one that will fit your area and personal needs.

I think the least expensive ways to reduce weight are:
1. Just don't take so much stuff.

2. Get a nice down bag. So far I am real happy w/ my Marmot Sawtooth. They go for about 169, and so far I have been warm down to about 40F.
Saving a couple pounds over a regular bag means some of your other stuff can be a little heavier.

3. Get an MSR Titan pot. It will cost about 20 bucks more than the stainless one, and weigh about 9 oz less.

4. Some of the packs are surpisingly heavy when empty. See what the pack weighs before you buy it.

5. If you have a comprehensive PSK, you may be able to make it a module that fits your pack. That way, you are not doubleing up on everything. Take your pack, put your pad in it, your bag, stove, tent/tarp, and PSK...and know that you have everything you need. That way you don't have a PSK, and a knife, and a first aid kit, and another ferro rod. Makes it a lot easier to bring everything w/ you too.

That's all. Many know much more about this than me, these are just the things that I have noticed. I like the idea of lightening my load, I just want to make sure I can do so safely.
 
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