Is this acceptable (Council Tool Velvicut)?

H

HazenPingree

Joined
Jun 15, 2014
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38
I just took delivery of this new Velvicut Dayton pattern. The head looks great, but I'm surprised at this price point, not to get a perfectly vertical grained sapwood handle. Thoughts?




 
The rings are very close together what we would refer to as tight grain. But for the price you no doubt paid if you are not happy with the heart wood I would send it back. The grain orientation however appears fine to me, I've seen the same on similarly priced axes.
 
It looks cool. I would use the hell out of it, and if it breaks prematurely I might send it back.
 
Perfect vertical grain is a one-in-a-thousand item. Your' handle has no run out (at all!) along the length (this is what severely weakens handles) which makes the diagonal cross grain perfectly suitable. It'll take considerable effort (via overstrikes) to break that handle. I know some folks on here (and elsewhere) pooh pooh tight growth rings but on the other hand the wood will be plenty dense.

Myself would be proud of a nicely figured handle such as that.
 
It all depends on if it is acceptable to you...
If you are referring to industry standards, then I say it's just fine...and there have been University research that has shown that there is no difference in the structure or strength between the heartwood and the sap wood on Hickory...and all heartwood used to be sapwood at one point..eh?

I'm sure they will exchange it for you...they are good people... :)

Peace, Rooster
 
I search for those mixed heartwood/sapwood straight grain handles and buy every one I see.
 
There have been various studies done by the US forestry service that have shown there is no difference in strength between heartwood and sapwood in hickory and most other woods. In a lot of woods the heartwood is actually stronger and more rot resistant than the sapwood. The grain orientation of your handle is perfectly okay, its more a matter of preference if you don't like the color change in your handle.

Here is some links for reference:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...od-Controversy?highlight=heartwood+vs+sapwood

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn147.pdf
 
Guys, I really appreciate the responses. My take away is that it's a perfectly suitable handle that has the added benefit of looking cool, and I should probably leave things be.

I'm a bit nervous because I have to rehang a Husqevarna/Wetterlings axe after only a year of use because of a long crack down the handle . . . probably my fault.

Thanks again, you're all a wealth of information.
 
The handle should work out just fine. We get on the "grain train" because of whatever reason. Don't believe the hype. Go use that thing, and I would highly doubt it will break due to the grain. Most will break due to operator error, poor storage, and poor maintenance.
 
So here's the one that broke on me recently. Grain looks pretty good to me, and use was not hard. Crack appears to go all the way through to the eye. It was stored in a very dry place however.






image uploading site

 
HazenPingree said:
. . . I'm surprised at this price point, not to get a perfectly vertical grained sapwood handle. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Don't have any advice, but here are a few things that crossed my mind reading your post.

As far as I can tell, CT doesn't say what the grain orientation actually IS. They just say "The grade “A” hickory handle is selected for grain orientation and density". You pays your money and takes your chances.

300Six said:
Perfect vertical grain is a one-in-a-thousand item. . .
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Yes, it's a crap shoot.

Just for the heck of it, here is your grain orientation:
24232009150_bfd0a57ed1.jpg


BMC is the only place I've seen to mention grain orientation as nickzdon states here (post #33) ". . .handles which specify grain orientation parallel to the bit with no more than 20º deviance left or right."

Bob
 
rjdankert said:
Don't have any advice, but here are a few things that crossed my mind reading your post.

As far as I can tell, CT doesn't say what the grain orientation actually IS. They just say "The grade “A” hickory handle is selected for grain orientation and density". You pays your money and takes your chances.


Yes, it's a crap shoot.

Just for the heck of it, here is your grain orientation:
24232009150_bfd0a57ed1.jpg


BMC is the only place I've seen to mention grain orientation as nickzdon states here (post #33) ". . .handles which specify grain orientation parallel to the bit with no more than 20º deviance left or right."

Bob
Click to expand...

Problem with their specs is it overlooks 'runout', which is singularly the killer of most curved (and straight!) handles.
 
HazenPingree said:
So here's the one that broke on me recently. Grain looks pretty good to me, and use was not hard. Crack appears to go all the way through to the eye. It was stored in a very dry place however.






image uploading site

Click to expand...

We have a tendency here(me included) to talk about growth ring violation and grain violation like they are the same thing. They are not. Your handle clearly illustrates that point. While we can not have growth ring run out with out violating the grain, we can stay in the growth ring and not follow the grain. Curved handles naturally violate the grain.

Most times we can get away with no more run out than yours has. Is that an all heart wood handle that broke?
 
Operator1975 said:
The handle should work out just fine. We get on the "grain train" because of whatever reason. Don't believe the hype. Go use that thing, and I would highly doubt it will break due to the grain. Most will break due to operator error, poor storage, and poor maintenance.
Click to expand...

What he said... Plus grain runout. I love heartwood
 
300Six said:
Problem with their specs is it overlooks 'runout', which is singularly the killer of most curved (and straight!) handles.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think CT and their supplier (Seymour?) specify "straight grain" which is equivalent to no runout, but doesn't say anything about orientation. This is what I've seen on their handles in person and online, ie grain orientation a little random but runs all the way through eye. Best made adds bastard cut and guarantees no more than 20% off from vertical, to please the internet grain train hardcore.

I still like white sapwood handle or at least all heartwood, but some think mixed is attractive and I can't see it really is any weakness.
 
A few years ago Margot Council told me Velvicut handle specs were 20 degrees and straight grain and they were hard to source.
 
halfaxe said:
A few years ago Margot Council told me Velvicut handle specs were 20 degrees and straight grain and they were hard to source.
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I don't doubt that. Much (80-90%?) of an ordinary saw log would be wasted if 'vertical' end grain and 'zero' runout billets were specified at a conventional sawmill. Severe runout has very little excuse for passing by QC (quality control) anywhere along the line but end grain variation up to 45 degrees off vertical should never be viewed as a detriment to producing durable handles.
 
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