Is this guy doing more harm than good?

[koyote]

See, we're back to arguing Not Enough again.

not enough what?

Can't rely on trapping and snaring. . .why? Because you don't have space to ram it up in your butt(stock). Carry a decent kit, and having trap and snare equipment is not a problem.

I won't rely on trapping and snaring in this environment, but it's not something I've brought up. No argument- if you are an experienced trapper, go for it.

Why are you limited to turkey with a rifle? Keep in mind we're talking survival: "Game laws don't allow it" need not apply. If they do, you're not really talking survival.

Okay, this is in direct response - the turkey comment- to a cernterfire rifle caliber. Go right on ahead and shoot a squirrel or dove with a .308 and see what you get out of it in terms of meat. Nope. turkey as about the size you need to have anything left after using a large rifle.

Now, to be completely honest, the shotgun really is the most versatile tool to center around. Much as people (especially on the internet) don't like to admit it, the vast majority of game kills occur at less than 100 yards, closer to 50 yards being the norm. Yes, even out west. People don't HAVE to take 300 yard shots, they do it because they can. These same game animals are taken each year with traditional archery equipment -- 40 yards being LONG shot.

Furthermore, if you are worried about defense, the majority (over 93%) of infantry combat occurs under 100 meters, much of it under 50. A shotgun with rifled slugs will do just fine for the vast majority of hunting and defense use.

Mostly agreed- discounting the silly survival kit thing, which is better placed in your shoulder/game/ammo bag that goes with the shotgun- the shotgun - especially in 20 or 12ga, is going to handle most of your needs more adequately than any single rifle of any caliber.

The .410 gets a bit iffy but I'd argue is still a better choice than a .22 and is used for closer range deer hunting. I'd definitely trust the brenneke 1/4 ounce .410 slug at out to 50 yards.

Now 200 yards with slugs? If you are going for such shots, you need sabot slugs and a rifled barrel. This means you either carry an extra barrel, or you give up pretty much all of your ability to use shot, and truly might as well carry a rifle.

200 yards would be an extreme case, but it is doable with rifled slugs. you have to know how it is going to shoot, which means practice- and it's a set piece steady rest, careful- and iffy- shot to make. But mostly irrelevant to the argument as 150 yards as a reasonable max is dandy. I'm aware of the extreme drop and holdover necessary at longer ranges. BUt it's not any harder than a 300 yard shot with a .45-70, and you can go to any cowboy shoot and see those. It's a matter of learning the weapon, the ranges, and the holds.

The real detriment to a shotgun is the weight and bulk of the ammo. However, I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think they are going to survive very long with just this shotgun and buttstock survival kit, so the need to carry large amounts of animals really isn't there.

The two main failings of the video project are in ammunition type/capacity and the crazy little kit.

In truth, I'd be a lot happier carrying 100 rounds of 20ga than 100 rounds of 12ga. Yet another reason (and there are many!) that I prefer the 20ga. The new 28ga slug adds some elements of joy to carrying that, as well.

Even with the bulk of the ammo, if you are looking for food, the shotgun is going to be your most versatile choice. In terms of ammo- yeah, you can take a LOT more .22LR or .22WMR than you can 20 ga. But I would posit that you'll get more out of your 20ga ammo- both in terms of hunting and defense.

This is another area where the often ignored .410 has advantages. Accepting the limitations, it's a servicable caliber for hunting upland fowl, small ground (and tree) mammals, and for closer range shots at deer. I'd argue that with the prevalence of decent ammo choices due to the saiga, hs410, and judge market- it's perfectly adequate for self defense in situations not involving platoon scale combat.

Carrying 200 rounds for a .410 pump is going to be cake. Accessorizing won't be, but that's solvable.

For reference, I have taken most upland game, bunny, hare, squirrel, snake, and coyote with a .410 - I have not taken a deer with one. (never tried.)



To bring up another related topic- the shotgun/rifle combo hasn't been mentioned. I think the .410/.22 pairing is silly because they are used for much the same game. a .410 over a .44 magnum would make me happiest, but I've seen things like .30-30/20ga and such that would work out reasonably well. Again- no platoon combat.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

not enough what?

Go back to my first reply. These tiny kits don't have enough of anything to really be useful, IMO. You can get a LOT more useful gear into something as small as a GI sustainment pouch. I see these "one item survival kits" as a mental exercise at best and inspiring a very false sense of security and readiness at worst. There's no reason not to have at least a small pack next to the gun that contains the actual survival gear.

I won't rely on trapping and snaring in this environment, but it's not something I've brought up. No argument- if you are an experienced trapper, go for it.

Well, it's a lot easier than most think if you are talking real survival, and realize that most of the illegal methods are illegal because they work too well. But let's not go into detail, too many locked threads lately.

Okay, this is in direct response - the turkey comment- to a cernterfire rifle caliber. Go right on ahead and shoot a squirrel or dove with a .308 and see what you get out of it in terms of meat. Nope. turkey as about the size you need to have anything left after using a large rifle.

Geese, ducks. . .
I must have missed the "centerfire" part of the rifle argument. However it is possible to "bark" squirrels, "rock" small birds on the ground, etc. You also don't need body shots. Even with a .22 rifle, I tend to head-shoot squirrel and rabbit. But, small animals are better taken with traps and snares, IMO, especially if the effective methods are used. If your ammo is rally limited, small game are a waste of ammo.

Mostly agreed- discounting the silly survival kit thing, which is better placed in your shoulder/game/ammo bag that goes with the shotgun- the shotgun - especially in 20 or 12ga, is going to handle most of your needs more adequately than any single rifle of any caliber.

The .410 gets a bit iffy but I'd argue is still a better choice than a .22 and is used for closer range deer hunting. I'd definitely trust the brenneke 1/4 ounce .410 slug at out to 50 yards.

I don't know about prices near you, but the cost of shells for anything other than 12 or 20 ga gets out of hand real fast around me. IMO, there's little reason to go with less than a 20 ga. Before anyone says it, there's plenty of women (even small women) who control 20 ga shotguns just fine, and many a youngster has cut his teeth on one.

200 yards would be an extreme case, but it is doable with rifled slugs. you have to know how it is going to shoot, which means practice- and it's a set piece steady rest, careful- and iffy- shot to make. But mostly irrelevant to the argument as 150 yards as a reasonable max is dandy. I'm aware of the extreme drop and holdover necessary at longer ranges. BUt it's not any harder than a 300 yard shot with a .45-70, and you can go to any cowboy shoot and see those. It's a matter of learning the weapon, the ranges, and the holds.

I'll give you that, but only IF your shotgun has something other than just a bead sight. You also need to be willing to accept bad hits. I have a 20" rifle-sighted barrel for my 870 and the problem isn't aiming, it's that even the best slugs rarely group better than 12" at 200 yards. But again, I'll also fall back on the fact that very little hunting or combat is done outside of 100 yards.

The two main failings of the video project are in ammunition type/capacity and the crazy little kit.

In truth, I'd be a lot happier carrying 100 rounds of 20ga than 100 rounds of 12ga. Yet another reason (and there are many!) that I prefer the 20ga. The new 28ga slug adds some elements of joy to carrying that, as well.

Even with the bulk of the ammo, if you are looking for food, the shotgun is going to be your most versatile choice. In terms of ammo- yeah, you can take a LOT more .22LR or .22WMR than you can 20 ga. But I would posit that you'll get more out of your 20ga ammo- both in terms of hunting and defense.

This is another area where the often ignored .410 has advantages. Accepting the limitations, it's a servicable caliber for hunting upland fowl, small ground (and tree) mammals, and for closer range shots at deer. I'd argue that with the prevalence of decent ammo choices due to the saiga, hs410, and judge market- it's perfectly adequate for self defense in situations not involving platoon scale combat.

Carrying 200 rounds for a .410 pump is going to be cake. Accessorizing won't be, but that's solvable.

For reference, I have taken most upland game, bunny, hare, squirrel, snake, and coyote with a .410 - I have not taken a deer with one. (never tried.)

Nothing in my post is meant to degrade the shotgun as a viable tool -- in fact one of the best -- for the proposed situations. I also completely disregard the kit in the video. Assuming you'll have a bag or pack, carrying enough ammo for a basic survive for a short time period, or survive to get from point A to point B is not a problem.

To bring up another related topic- the shotgun/rifle combo hasn't been mentioned. I think the .410/.22 pairing is silly because they are used for much the same game. a .410 over a .44 magnum would make me happiest, but I've seen things like .30-30/20ga and such that would work out reasonably well. Again- no platoon combat.

My dream rifle for such a combo is a .22 Magnum rifle on top, and a 20-ga on the bottom. IIRC the out of production Savage 24C is the only make of that exact combination. Too many make the mistake of putting the rifle on the bottom.

 

[koyote]

omitting the quotes-

barking makes me unhappy as a survival tactic, but if I had to, I'd do it.

Regarding cost of shells- barring the slugs (and you *can* find molds for those)- reloading .410 is really really cheap. The price differential isn't as bad as it once was on inexpensive .410 ammo- thanks again to saiga and taurus.

And if you are going to shoot enough to focus on a firearm as a survival tool, you should reload - or find a friend who does- anyway. 100 rounds a week of .38, 50 of .44 special, a few dozen shotgun shells, and 14-28 rounds of .32acp - man, that adds up fast. And that's if I'm not bringing anything special out- and doesn't count the .22short and long rifle we go through.

Once upon a time, the lee loader was made for .410. I need to get my hands on one of those.

Given the relative weights, the .410 isn't much less felt recoil in many of the firearms- single shot .410s are common examples- than the 20ga. My only real case in favor of the .410 is that it is enough gun to survive and carrying ammunition is far easier. I focus on the 20ga.


At first, the .22mag and 20ga seems wrong to me. Given that a .22 magnum can do the job on a coyote at 100 yards, I suppose it's not such a stretch. There are times when using shot on smaller game is a waste in comparison to a .22 rimfire of any type.

I'd still prefer .44 magnum over .410, since that gives a very broad range of uses. (and that brings up the circuit judge, but I'd have to see that thing take dove on a line before I'd believe it was useful.)

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Horses for courses.

Reason I like the .22 Mag as the rifle, is the ballistics are much better than the .22LR -- an inch or so of vertical rise over 100 yards -- makes it very precise for small game out to ranges you usually wouldn't hunt such at.

The 20 ga can handle all of the shot tasks, and with slugs, the medium/large game shots.

We can go round and round about this, but individual pieces of gear are a personal choice, and other than a truly stupid choice (like picking a Liberator pistol as your survival arm), one should be able to make just about anything work. They just may not be able to do things the way they want to. The basic concepts of survival are always the same, you just have to edit the details for the equipment you have. This of course would seem to indicate it truly is the smart way to go to assemble the gear that works with your individual strengths now, rather than have to scrounge and make due in extremis.

 

[Frostyfingers]

Interesting that he assumes he will be "shooting" food. In a short term "get-outta-town" situation, I'd be saving my rounds for defense and looking for less noticeable way to obtain protein. In a long-term scenario, there really isn't enough ammo to do much good. Neat exercise, but not exactly all-inclusive.

Frosty

 

[koyote]

Horses for courses.

Reason I like the .22 Mag as the rifle, is the ballistics are much better than the .22LR -- an inch or so of vertical rise over 100 yards -- makes it very precise for small game out to ranges you usually wouldn't hunt such at.

The 20 ga can handle all of the shot tasks, and with slugs, the medium/large game shots.

We can go round and round about this, but individual pieces of gear are a personal choice, and other than a truly stupid choice .

Agreed again. Just out of curiosity, would you take a 20/.17hmr if given the choice?

Your reasoning isn't far off from my .410/.44mag reasoning. I, personally, with iron sights, am more likely to not try shots past 40 yards on the smaller of small game, but I can pop a pie plate at 100 with any decent .44. I guess half or more of my specific desire there is ammunition capacity.

But, since I have a plethora of 20ga, some 12ga, and a couple .410s- I stick with those.

Interesting that he assumes he will be "shooting" food. In a short term "get-outta-town" situation, I'd be saving my rounds for defense and looking for less noticeable way to obtain protein. In a long-term scenario, there really isn't enough ammo to do much good. Neat exercise, but not exactly all-inclusive.

Frosty

Oh, I (at least me, probably others) am far past the silliness of the video. Just not enough there to be much good.

I do think people tend to stick the self-defense aspects too far up the ladder of priorities. We didn't always live in the country, and the bug out plans included the possibility of self defense. But in terms of equipment choice, I'd put hunting over SD and learn how best to use my hunting weapons for such.

Granted, I make a nod in that direction with my 12 and 20ga shotguns- only one has a proper 28 inch full choke long range bird barrel. But a 22 inch cylinder can pattern surprisingly well. And my 12ga brush gun is 20 inches and is fine for dense areas. Walking the dove line wouldn't be as useful with it. I am still debating whether or not the 25 inch barrel on the remington model 11 needs more work. It's pure fun, but might end up as my shop shotgun after I decide which extension to add on. 4 rounds in a semiauto just isn't....enough fun!

Let me find one of these in 20ga, apply full buckhorn sights, and I'd be happy as a clam alone in the wilds:

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day CoyotePhysics

The internet is funny, while looking up info about selfbows I stumbled across this video. Anyways, I watched it for kicks and it left me wondering if people are actually taking this guy seriously. He does throw in a handfull of good survival tips, but the core concept of the video is... odd. I don't have anything against shotguns, but promoting the idea that it should be the core component of your survival kit?

I could cite more grievences, but rather than writting a rant I want to get your oppinion.

Considering the fact that this individual is a "professional survival instructor." Is he helping the world be more prepared by presenting survival tips in a format that will appeal to... certain people, or is whatever good he does so far burried beneath a layer of junk that it only furthers misinformation?

[video=youtube;86o8tN0wszc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86o8tN0wszc[/video]

Since I have surpassed my internet downloads/uploads for the month, let me start by saying that I haven't seen the linked to video.

Do you know how many times I've seen a "couple of survival tips", (no doubt gleaned from a book or internet site), from internet "survival instructors", that has instantly gained them credibility from less experienced individuals?

When I consider the number of so called "moderators" of forums that pretend to focus of life outside your house, that have indicated the same (and btw, have yet to show they have spent anytime outdoors themselves) and been hailed as gurus of survival, how is this dude any different?

BTW all this might just change after I've had a chance to see the video.



Kind regards
Mick

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Mick, keep in mind that this video was at least originally intended as an "article" for The Art Of Manliness website, which is a bit tongue in cheek.

 

[koyote]

G'day CoyotePhysics



Since I have surpassed my internet downloads/uploads for the month, let me start by saying that I haven't seen the linked to video.

Do you know how many times I've seen a "couple of survival tips", (no doubt gleaned from a book or internet site), from internet "survival instructors", that has instantly gained them credibility from less experienced individuals?

When I consider the number of so called "moderators" of forums that pretend to focus of life outside your house, that have indicated the same (and btw, have yet to show they have spent anytime outdoors themselves) and been hailed as gurus of survival, how is this dude any different?

BTW all this might just change after I've had a chance to see the video.



Kind regards
Mick

It won't. He isn't a "never left his couch" type of guy, no. He reminds me of a 1980s asocial highschool Survivalist fed a steady diet of ahern novels and trying to assemble kit from materials his dad won't miss from the garage.

edit:
AHA! if it's designed as tongue in cheek it makes a lot more sense.

 

[RandomAyes]

I thought the shotgun kit was ok as a thought experiment, just like the MINI altoids tin kit. Not practical in and of itself but useful in planning, and in evaluating individual components.

The more I think about survival kits & bugout bags the more I think a well-stocked SUV is the best kit. Just climb in your bugout bag and drive it out of town before the hurricane hits.

 

[BokerLover]

I was always told that in a survival situation you wanted things that would last the longest. Fishing line and hooks could be used over and over. snare wire or cord for traps could be used over and over. Any firearm can run out out of ammo and be worthless.

 

[raider63]

I think his idea is great!, as an addition to a kit, But I can't see any reason why he can't grab a BOB sitting next to this great addition!

 

[koyote]

I thought the shotgun kit was ok as a thought experiment, just like the MINI altoids tin kit. Not practical in and of itself but useful in planning, and in evaluating individual components.

The more I think about survival kits & bugout bags the more I think a well-stocked SUV is the best kit. Just climb in your bugout bag and drive it out of town before the hurricane hits.

The right altoids kit can be a pretty useful thing for a non-urban situation. It's just accessories to make it easier, after all- once you have a knife and some skills, you are (theoretically, depending on conditions) good to go.

I was always told that in a survival situation you wanted things that would last the longest. Fishing line and hooks could be used over and over. snare wire or cord for traps could be used over and over. Any firearm can run out out of ammo and be worthless.

You'd have to define survival situation. I understand the thought- but I'd rather be able to make fishing kit than rely on the one I packed not breaking down.

Yeah, you can run out of ammo- but how long is it going to take? what's the survival situation? I'm certainly not taking the truck gun out for the van just because it could run out of ammo after a while. 72 hours? 2 weeks? winter over in some remote forgotten, windigo ridden backtundra canadian wilds? (and you damn sure betcha I want a firearm for THAT scenario!)

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Cpl

Mick, keep in mind that this video was at least originally intended as an "article" for The Art Of Manliness website, which is a bit tongue in cheek.

I do understand the meaning of the term "tongue in cheek".

But I'm also old enough, with enough experience with BS artists to make me cynical enough, to realise a ready defense when challenged is "I'm only joking mate".

I'll reserve further judgement untill my dowload quote is restored so I can watch the original video & search for other posts from this individual.

Although I will state my preliminary thoughts.

Who here thinks that Roger Moore ever had the physical credentials to be a realistic "James Bond"?

IMO, the same applies to genuine wilderness adventuring & survival ability.


Kind regards
Mick

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Koyote

It won't. He isn't a "never left his couch" type of guy, no. He reminds me of a 1980s asocial highschool Survivalist fed a steady diet of ahern novels and trying to assemble kit from materials his dad won't miss from the garage.
.

Not personally knowing the type your referring to, again I ask...How is he any different from the legion of internet participants who express their opinion as fact, without showing they walk the walk....

....Oh that's right....the camera battery was flat, or I didn't have the memory card in the camera, or even worse still..."how dare you ask me for evidence that I go out doors, my opinion should be enough". :jerkit:



Kind regards
Mick

 

[One Legged Josh]

My personal opinion....It looks like he walked through a "tactical" store with the crap magnet turned on.
To each his own I guess.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

G'day Cpl



I do understand the meaning of the term "tongue in cheek".

But I'm also old enough, with enough experience with BS artists to make me cynical enough, to realise a ready defense when challenged is "I'm only joking mate"

To be fair, he never says he's joking or making this tongue in cheek. So the sad fact is, he may actually be serious.

However, I remember this from the Art of Manliness website, which is a combination of historical, factual information of "this is what men of the past did" to kind of revive the "gentlemanly arts in modern times" so to speak, and some of it is over-the-top humor kind of making fun of the "Me man, err, err, err" type. Because of that, I classed this video in the humor category.

 

[Woods Walker]

but promoting the idea that it should be the core component of your survival kit?

I do somehow feel better when armed in the woods but then again I can’t shoot the rain, wind, snow, ticks, mosquitoes, widow makers, flood risks and blazing sun. Maybe the guy spends more time making YouTube videos than getting dirty? But to be fair I don't know him from Adam.

 

[Bopleo]

I like his use of putting a few hot dogs down the barrel for backup food supply.

 

[paperairplane]

A big advantage of the shotgun is that it is a relatively simple weapon system. KISS guides a lot of my gear selections - particularly if they are SD/HD gear items.

The only accessory a shotgun needs is a sling, and that is debatable.

For the record, 870's have the safety in the wrong place and the feed ramp works as an effective finger pincher. I'll keep my 500. I also do most of my hunting with 12ga singles.