Is this normal?

C

caveman

Joined
May 24, 2000
Messages
49
I have recently had (actually I am still having) a rather unfortunate experience with a couple of custom knifemakers. I am not going to mention their names here since they, apparently, are well known, liked and respected. I am somewhat new to the custom knife scene, and I am merely curious if such things are common.

In short: I ordered a knife around June, 2000. The promised delivery time was in three months. I still do not have the knife. I inquired several times with the knifemaker and he always promised the knife to me to be delivered shortly. I consider it impolite to constantly pester someone, and I am kinda giving up on that knife.

Another knife that I ordered was supposed to be delivered some time in December (at the latest), and I got it today (03-06-2001)

Is that normal? do I have to be an a**hole and pester the maker with calls and e-mails every day to get something in reasonable time?

Thanks.

Ilya Koshkin

P.S. I am not going to disclose the names of the knifemakers in question. I believe they are both full-time makers and I do not want to tarnish their reputations in any way.

[This message has been edited by caveman (edited 03-07-2001).]
 
Hard spot to be in. I know makers can get behind, and they really try to keep delivery dates. On the other hand, you are a customer, and when you are told something, every effort should be made to keep a promise to you. Hate to hear ya had a bad experiance, but it could just be that the maker got really behind.

Good luck


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Richard Todd - Digital knife photography
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I feel that as a customer, the maker should be expected to deliver the knife within the quoted timeframe. You were quoted 3 months, and it's been 8. If you have put down a deposit I think this is complete BS. Actually, even if you haven't put down a deposit it's still BS.

If the maker just offers excuses without merit, I would cut my lost time and spend my money with someone else.

Right now I have been waiting 5 months off a 6 week lead time for a Deryk Munroe Chimera. First he ran out of Talonite, which set him back until January. Then his hand got injured was in a splint. Now a couple of motors on his grinders crapped out. I'm getting a little frustrated by the situation, but all these things are legitamate hold-ups.

I just check in every few weeks to see what the status is.

To me buying custom knives about more than just knives. To me it is an experience. The interaction with the maker can make the knife so much more special. If the maker is giving you a hard time, I would voice my concerns...the worst he/she can do is to tell you to screw off, in which case you know he/she is a jerk anyway.

Sorry for the rant. Good luck with your waiting game!
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~Mitch

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My Hobby Page
 
I can see how you find it frustrating but from the other side of the coin I am behind on some of my orders because of injuries. Things are getting better now but for a month or so I could not grind due to an injured tendon in my right hand. The pressure that orders in house put me under was intense but customers were very supportive during the period and I thank them.

The risk of being unable to deliver on time is one of the reasons that I avoid taking deposits on standard patterns because having a deposit on hand increases the pressure. The only knives that I take deposits on are unusal designs that require up front purchases of special material

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com


 
Delays don't bother me as long as the maker makes a reasonable effort to keep me informed. Injuries and other crises do occur, and I certainly don't mind cutting somebody some slack if they have a legitimate reason. On the other hand, if a knife was a month past its delivery date and I hadn't heard from the maker, I'd certainly put in an email or phone call, just to make sure they hadn't forgotten.
 
I understand your flustration here...I believe that if the maker is not contacting you when he see's a delay then you should fuss at him.
Being a full time maker myself I have this happen to me,like at the present I am over 3 weeks behind in my projected delivery dates,It wasn't my fault as a order for belts was back logged on me,even though I did order them ahead of time,then my daughter got sick..now I just cot myself yesterday trying to finish up this bowie.
I know that all this could sound like a excuse but it is the way things go...Like when you work for someone else,if they have a shipment delayedand causes the plant to get behind then everybody has to work overtime to catch up,if a machine breaks then they have to have the maintenance guys fix it which causes more delays,employees kids get sick and they stay home with them so the plant is short handed,etc. etc. etc..
Please remember that us fulltime makers are just like any other place of employment only we are the owner-secretary-janitor-maintenance-and get to work on knives when all this is done,and if the kids are sick or we get hurt or the wife gets sick we become the nurse and take care of them.
I get really stressed out and mad at myself when I miss a projected date and I am the worst at trying to guess a date that I can finish a knife in sometimes.If I am doing something new then I don't know how long it will take to begin with and since I am figuring things out as I go some parts that usually take a couple of hours can take a couple of days....S sometimes I have allot more hours in a piece than what I am being paid for and am running behind so I get stressed and that doesn't help either...
BUT I always let the customer know that something is up and i keep them posted as I go,If I say it will be done in a couple more days and something comes up then I have to contact them with give me a couple of more days....I try not to let anybody stay hanging and wondering.
Delays are why I don't take deposits and when I give a projected date that is just what it is projected,I have started giving a time frame and then adding give or take a couple of weks for delays....
Sorry to be so long winded here but I wanted to explain that sometimes things happen and we have no control over them,and we all hope that the customer is understanding with us just like they hope that there boss is understanding when they have to call in sick due to circumstances beyond there control.
Some makers are not legitimate and take advantage of people but for the most part we all try our best to do what we sy we will do.Please be patient with use as if we get rushed we don't do our best work.....
Bruce

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Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
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Delays in deliveries of custom knives may not be “normal” but they’re certainly not uncommon, even among talented and well-organized makers. For all the reasons stated above (and many others), makers sometimes find themselves in unavoidable situations that may compromise their schedules. As a customer I normally don’t have a problem with this at all, as long as the maker makes a reasonable effort to keep me informed of the delays. I’m not going to be overly concerned if a delivery date slips a few weeks, but if months (or years) go by without some sort of correspondence from the maker I’ll begin to worry if I’m ever going to see the knife
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. Communication is the key. It doesn’t have to be a long drawn-out explanation of the specific circumstances…just a brief message or call to reassure me that I haven’t been forgotten.

On the other hand, I’m a little curious as to how knifemakers view customers who may be reluctant to contact them…is this ever interpreted as a lack of interest on the part of the customer? Like some of the other posters I try to avoid “pestering” a maker who’s working on one of my projects, but I sometimes wonder if this is always the best strategy. For example, I ordered a knife a couple of years ago (no deposit) and after a couple of months had passed from the scheduled delivery date I finally contacted the maker to check on the status. His response was that since he hadn’t heard from me he had assumed that I was no longer interested in the knife
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(this was after what I thought was a clear agreement that he would notify me when the knife was ready for shipment). Everything worked out satisfactorily…I had the knife in hand about a week later. Now I realize that this may have simply been his rationalization for losing track of my order, but I wonder if there are some makers who actually work on this basis. Sometimes there’s a fine line between being a concerned, involved customer and being a pest …I just want to make sure that I don’t cross it any more than necessary
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.

Trying to be patient…

Jim
 
I can't speak for other makers. I can only speak for myself.

When I quote a delivery date, and an order is placed, there is no reason for the customer to contact me unless he or she just wants to check the status of progress. (Most times, these are not 2 hour phone calls!
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)

If I forsee a problem in keeping the delivery date, due to ANY reason, I will contact the customer to let them know a delay might happen. They then have every right to cancel the order.

If I don't hear from a customer before the delivery date, I don't interpret that as a "loss of interest." I feel any maker who relies on this is suggesting that he or she MUST be badgered to make knives. I also believe makers who quote 3 months delivery and consistantly deliver much later than that are abusing their backlog. One might even assume this is also some sort of "sales gimmick" to get people to order knives.

I've also heard of instances where a maker promises to do all kinds of "tricks" to a knife (or tries an entirely new type of knife) and then finds out he can't do it. This might also turn into a delay in delivery and is absolutely the maker's fault for agreeing to do something he has never even tried before.

There is a lot more to being a successful knifemaker than just making knives. I would hope delays are the exception rather than the norm - especially when dealing with established makers who should know how to run an efficient business.
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ps: Gus K has an excellent thread opened on this very subject.


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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
I'm way behind at the moment, maybe a couple months. When I originally quoted the expected delivery dates, I did so in the honest belief that they were reasonable. And maybe I overextended myself in trying to give someone the answer they wanted. There are some factors to consider.

Most knifemakers don't get paid unless they deliver your knife, so they have every incentive to do so. If they can't, it is seldom a result of their intent to just annoy you or to be devious.

Most of us are lousy businessmen, bookkeepers, production planners, etc. If we were, we'd have a real job.

Many of us are and will always be learning our craft as we go. That doesn't always mean we get faster; sometimes and often we get slower as we improve the way we do things so as to improve the quality of our product.

Since it is imperative we attend knifeshows, so as to keep our faces in public view and to recharge our batteries with some healthy human interactions, we must make knives to sell at these shows. There is no way I know of to predict how many of those knives will be sold, so if I sell just a knife or two at the Blade Show, I'll still have a bunch left for the Guild Show a month later, then the PKA show a few weeks later, then the Southeastern show a few weeks after that, then the Spirit of Steel show a couple weeks after that. If I sell out at the Blade Show, I'm in deep kaka. As you might imagine, this becomes a period of substantial turmoil, frustration, and very hard work. For the last show I attended, half the knives on my table were already sold, but I had them there so I could show my work and fulfill my obligation to those who organized and attended the show.

I don't mind folks calling or emailing to ask
how their knife is coming. That's to be expected, as is some disappointment when I have to give the wrong answer. Personally, I feel like hell when I get behind, but I genuinely don't know what to do about it. I just don't dare rush; that leads to even worse consequences.

But let me remind everyone here, when you order a knife, assuming you've not paid for it up front, you're waiting for a new toy to arrive. If it's delayed, life will go on. The knifemaker, especially those of us who do this fulltime, is most concerned with feeding his family. Ask yourself then which has the greater reasonable concern for that knife being delivered, and what besides a desire to irritate you might mitigate that happening.

The original poster on this thread asked a very reasonable question, and did so in a considerate manner. I'm not at all criticizing him. I'm just concerned that this not escallate into another knifemaker trashing as has erupted in these forums in the past. Until proven otherwise, we are mostly honest and honorable people doing the best we can with the modest talent and sometimes profound limitations we are given.



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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show
 
I may be totally off-base here, but I'm kind of used to that. It seems to me that Knifemakers are special, especialy if you love a certain makers work and you have to have one of their knives. I think most makers take their commitments very seriously, but I don't think that makers who don't are adversely affected. At least not for some time. Some makers have a reputation for being undependable but people still want their knives and it may even make them more desireable. Being a "Professional" has a lot more to do than just making a good product.
 
I think Jerry brings up a very good point
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But let me remind everyone here, when you order a knife, assuming you've not paid for it up front, you're waiting for a new toy to arrive. If it's delayed, life will go on. The knifemaker, especially those of us who do this fulltime, is most concerned with feeding his family. Ask yourself then which has the greater reasonable concern for that knife being delivered, and what besides a desire to irritate you might mitigate that happening.</font>
Click to expand...

This is something I often forget...for me its a hobby, for the maker it puts food on the table.

All the makers here have expressed what I believe to be the right attitude...they want to deliver on time, and will keep their customers informed if they are delayed.

Back to Caveman's original concern: it's been eight months...it's time for the maker to give a reason for the delays, rather than just saying it's going to be finished soon.

~Mitch

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My Hobby Page
 
Jerry made some very valid points:

If a maker is doing this to put food on his table, he will do everything possible to get your knife to you as soon as possible.

And, not everybody is a good planner!

But, any maker who accepts an order is making a "contract" - whether he accepts a down payment or not. The same goes for the person ordering the knife. I really don't think the "Do you really need a custom knife to live?" issue should have anything to do with a maker's attitude towards how he conducts business. A lot of money is involved in many custom knife transactions, and there's a basic business principle involved even if it's "just a $20.00 knife." No matter what amount, it will help put food on the maker's table.

Some customers are "patient". Some are not. Some makers are "punctual". Some are not. One would think that a really bad business person wouldn't survive in the sea of makers we have now - unless he offered something you couldn't get anywhere else.

I don't recall if Picasso had a waiting list, but I know Ferrari does!

It gets back to the opinion vs opinion thing, and everything I've said here is just my opinion!
wink.gif




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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Yeah!

A person can own a fancy new watch and still not know how to read it!
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(Good one, Mayo!
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)

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Thanks for all the replies.
I did not put any money down on those knives (I would have, but they said they don't do business that way).
I have tried contacting the maker in question several times, and every time I got an answer that the knife is practically done and I'll be getting it shortly.
In every case that turned out to be an outright lie (I am talking about one maker only, not both that I ordered from).
I do not mind waiting if necessary, but I do believe that if the maker is delayed he should let me know. If he suffered an injury or ran out of materials I'll wait, no problem.
BUT, I do not want to hear something along the lines of: "Oh, it just needs some final touch-up and sharpening, and I'll send it out immediately" and wait for months after that.

[This message has been edited by caveman (edited 03-07-2001).]
 
"I have tried contacting the maker in question several times, and every time I got an answer that the knife is practically done and I'll be getting it shortly.
In every case that turned out to be an outright lie."

Caveman, you know what the right thing to do is!
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Oh, another thing.
The design and the craftsmanship of a knife are very important to me indeed. However, it is also very important to me who made the knife. A makers integrity and personality are very important to me. A maker's being straightforward is very important to me as well. I expect the maker to tell me how things are, not what I would like to hear at that particular moment. If You give me a long delivery time: that's fine; just don't feed me with numbers that are not true.
Similarly, with designs or materials: when I ask somebody's advice, I expect to hear a straightforward answer, rather than: "the customer is always right".

Oh, based on the replies here, I think I know who I'll be ordering my future knives from.
 
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