Is walrus tusk legal? (Pictures added)

Dmitry, I researched your artist, Edwin J. Weyiouanna of Shishmaref Alaska. It turns out there is tons of stuff about him on the internet. About his art and his social and political activity. About twelve pages of results. He is primarily a carver, not so much a scrimshander. He is still alive, and apparently very active.
 
What I don't get is how the law can prohibit what you can do with your personal property. The ivory in question was obtained at a garage sale by a private individual using his own funds. He did not kill the animal, harvest the ivory, and try to sell it for profit. I see no reason it can't be considered personal property to use as he wishs. I know the law, as cited by Mark, say otherwise, but it seems to infringe upon personal rights.

Dave
 
David Stifle said:
What I don't get is how the law can prohibit what you can do with your personal property. The ivory in question was obtained at a garage sale by a private individual using his own funds. He did not kill the animal, harvest the ivory, and try to sell it for profit. I see no reason it can't be considered personal property to use as he wishs. I know the law, as cited by Mark, say otherwise, but it seems to infringe upon personal rights.

Dave
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Well, it doesn't seem fair, but protecting the species is the most important thing. I guess it's much easier to control people at the "user" end of the supply string than it is to control them at the "live animal" end, in the Chukchi sea. I don't really like it but I comply.
 
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There are numerous other kinds of fraud at shows. I have done about 700 gun or knife shows. One ploy where things are checked at doors for tags is to come in with a cheap article which receives a colored round sticky. One fellow came in with a cheap gun. He talked to a fellow with expensive guns on his table in front of his wife. He returned when the fellow was away from his table and told the wife her husband was at his table and they were discussing a trade. Whereupon , he laid the cheap gun on her table and walked off with an expensive gun to take back to her husband at the second table. The crook then placed the colored sticky on his "new" gun and walked out the door.

Another ploy was seen at an old Great Western Gun Show. A gal walked through the show in a see through bikini negligee to get one's momentary attention and then guns/knives were stolen by accomplices. Another ploy at the GRS was to send 9 yr old kids rushing under tables and grabbing heavy briefcases or money boxes and rushing outside (there were numerous buildings plus tables outside at that 6200 table show) and then handing off the briefcase to an adult accomplice. One fellow was even sapped at his own table. Thefts after the show closed for the night by guards/concessionaires/county workers was not unusual. Following a dealer after the show and breaking into his vehicle when he stopped for a nice meal following a successful show was also not uncommon.

Just be careful out there.
 
Just to be clear, we are talking about doing something with the ivory and selling it. If you just make yourself a knife and use it yourself, it is entirely legal to do what you want with then tusk.

I can't seem to find any references to the robberies listed above? When were these done?
 
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bladsmth said:
Just to be clear, we are talking about doing something with the ivory and selling it. If you just make yourself a knife and use it yourself, it is entirely legal to do what you want with then tusk.
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No Stacy, not according to USF&W. On post act walrus ivory the only people allowed to alter it are native people. If you or I buy a carving or a seal skin coat (either for ourselves or resale) and say the carving breaks or you would like to have the seal skin coat altered to fit your mother-in-law you have to return the carving to a native person for repairs or the coat to a native person for alterations. It must stay what it is forever unless a native person changes it.
 
Are you joking? That was a 6200 table show with outside vendors and 8 full buildings. They averaged 100 stolen guns at EVERY show there. At first, it was held at the Great Western Fairgrounds (1200 tables) in the City of Commerce which was torn down for low cost housing. Then it moved to the LA County Fairgrounds in Pomona. Then the county fathers (Democrats) decided that gun shows would be not allowed on county property. That killed the show, but was illegal under California law, so the promoter sued and won a few million...NOT from the county stupervisers, but from the public funds. As part of the agreement, they never held another gun show there. Now the biggest show in the country is in Tulsa...4200 tables.
 
I'm waiting for an answer from the State authorities.
In the mean time, I researched the USF&W code and only see that Alaskan ivories can only be sold , traded,or altered by native artisans...but this restriction is in reference to selling the products. It also appears to be governing the possession and selling in Alaska, and the shipping to the other US states. It doesn't seem to have any control of possession without intent to sell in the other states. As far as I know, there is no federal law against any US citizen possessing any ivory product, as long as it was legally imported and sold...and stays in your personal possession.

Mark,
I really want to understand this, and you are surely one who deals with this daily. Can you email me the code sections that restrict the modification and possession things you are talking about.
 
Not that i am going to touch the tusk or the tooth, but... I heard that if the ivory left the Alaska legaly it can be altered or used any way one wants. It can leave Alaska only if sold by the native. So that is native's monopoly to trade ivory inside and outside the state. And it can be sold only in the "product shape". That means that it can not be a raw or a bulk ivory, it must be worked into something.
 
Mark: You have done a very good job explaining the law, congratulations on your knowledge and patience!
 
bladsmth said:
I'm waiting for an answer from the State authorities.
In the mean time, I researched the USF&W code and only see that Alaskan ivories can only be sold , traded,or altered by native artisans...but this restriction is in reference to selling the products. It also appears to be governing the possession and selling in Alaska, and the shipping to the other US states. It doesn't seem to have any control of possession without intent to sell in the other states. As far as I know, there is no federal law against any US citizen possessing any ivory product, as long as it was legally imported and sold...and stays in your personal possession.

Mark,
I really want to understand this, and you are surely one who deals with this daily. Can you email me the code sections that restrict the modification and possession things you are talking about.
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Hi Stacy, As I understand it. The term "Alaskan Ivories" means ivory from Alaska no matter where it is. As I understand it the law does extend to uses of the material in private possession after it leaves Alaska without intent to sell.
My understanding of the law and how it is interpreted is from conversations (many) with USF&W officers, District attorneys, and from hiring a lawyer to research the subject. Though I have read various parts of it.

It is the universally accepted interpretation that any animal products from species covered by the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 can only be altered by native artists over it's entire existence.

I don't think it is fair, I don't even know if the law actually says it, but over the last twenty years I have learned not to buck it, and not even complain about it because that throws up red flags in the eyes of wildlife officials here. It's counterproductive to getting along in my business.

I am sorry I can't site you the code.

You and I both know that in reality if someone was to use a garage sale find on a handle and intended to keep it there would be no issues. Having said that, everyone should realize that there people on staff in the USF&W service that monitor the internet. They watch all the major chat sites like Taxidermy.net, auction sites like eBay and the internet in general with programs that flag conversation about the hot button issues. Elephant ivory, Rhino horn, walrus ivory, turtle shell, all these terms are search words that throw up red flags in offices somewhere. If there are extended conversations about any of this stuff people will know about it.

I saw a sea turtle shell on eBay one time that had been killed before any bans. It had been lost in a warehouse since the fifties. The new owner of the warehouse put it on eBay and I called the Fairbanks USF&W who I often call with questions, to ask if I should/could buy it. I had read all the code relating to sea turtles and could find no reason why I could not buy the shell. The officer here first told me not to buy it, he later called me back after calling a California office, and told me that they knew about the shell, they were watching it and that they were not going to let it get back into commerce. I watched as the auction closed and someone bought it, I assume all parties were contacted by USF&W.

Different things to be sure, but my point is the laws are far reaching, they are interpreted farther than what is in print and people are watching.

I have no way of knowing but I am sure that many of the conversations we have on Blade Forums are being read by people in offices somewhere, or at least being flagged to be looked at more carefully.

I'm interested to hear what you learn and it seems more "right" that you are right but I know how things are done up here and unless things change I will continue to do things as I have done them.
 
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As a fun side subject, the law allows anyone finding a dead walrus, otter, or polar bear on the beach, or within 1/4 mile of any shore to keep the teeth, bones, oosik, tusks, and skull. They must register the find with F&W and can't sell the tusks/bones, but they can do what they want with them for their own use. They can not keep the skin, though.

Also, we have been referring to all these tusks as "Alaskan"...and in fact it is all US areas that have walrus. The term native American or Inuit can be other than Alaskan,too.

Here is a link on some of the regulations:
http://alaska.fws.gov/fisheries/mmm/qa_sub_harvest.htm#may4

Mark, I will surely let you know what I hear.
As far as how it is done up there, what you say makes sense, since there could be illegally obtained walrus tusk available, and there is a state fostered industry in Native American/Inuit artisan crafts. Once they leave for the lower 48, there is no competing artist group, as well as no other legal source for post ban tusks.
 
bladsmth said:
As a fun side subject, the law allows anyone finding a dead walrus, otter, or polar bear on the beach, or within 1/4 mile of any shore to keep the teeth, bones, oosik, tusks, and skull. They must register the find with F&W and can't sell the tusks/bones, but they can do what they want with them for their own use. They can not keep the skin, though.

Also, we have been referring to all these tusks as "Alaskan"...and in fact it is all US areas that have walrus. The term native American or Inuit can be other than Alaskan,too.

Here is a link on some of the regulations:
http://alaska.fws.gov/fisheries/mmm/qa_sub_harvest.htm#may4
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I remember reading that part, when we register these beach finds, we are told that we are not allowed to alter these things. So that seems to contradict the part where it says we can do whatever we want to with them for our own use. They are tagged with a metal and plastic locking tag with an identification number on it. The tag is supposed stay on it forever. If you find a piece of fossil walrus ivory on the beach you are supposed to have it registered and tagged, if you do, you can't use it for a knife handle. If you find it farther inland and it is fossil walrus ivory you do not have to register it and you can use it however you like. It gets complicated.

The term Native American and Inuit can include all Alaska Natives though not all native Alaskans (someone born in Alaska) or Alaskans. That may be what you meant to say but they are really different and it is a huge sticking point to Alaskans. To be clear, people not of Native American or Alaska Native blood do not count, for matters of this discussion.

Another thing I am aware of is that just because we are all supposed to have been created equal it doesn't mean that we will be treated or scrutinized equally. If someone from Hoboken picks up some ivory on the beach in Alaska he's likely to not be treated as harshly if he is found to have done something wrong with it than a store owner in Fairbanks. Also, different jurisdictions of the same agency are likely to interpret and enforce laws differently.

We should remember that the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 is only the skeleton of the law. When I asked my lawyer to research this subject his paralegals went into case law to see how the whole thing is fleshed out. We can't get a clear picture of what is legal and what is not by reading the act alone.

I am glad to hear about this from other perspectives, please be sure to share more of what you find interesting.
 
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Yes, the rules can be read in several ways.
From the USF&W -

ARE THERE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS FOR BEACH FOUND PARTS?
Collected parts from sea otter, polar bear, and walrus must be presented to a Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) representative for registration and/or tagging. Parts from other marine mammal species must be registered with NMFS. Parts must be reported within 30 days of the find. Once these parts are registered, they become property of the finder and cannot be sold, traded or given away without permission from the registering agency.

It doesn't say what you can do with once it is your personal property...except that you need permission to transfer ownership. In most states, personal property can be used as the owner wishes, but that is not necessarily the case here...or is it???? The lawyers get rich on the ambiguity of the law :) .
 
bladsmth said:
Yes, the rules can be read in several ways.
From the USF&W -

ARE THERE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS FOR BEACH FOUND PARTS?
Collected parts from sea otter, polar bear, and walrus must be presented to a Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) representative for registration and/or tagging. Parts from other marine mammal species must be registered with NMFS. Parts must be reported within 30 days of the find. Once these parts are registered, they become property of the finder and cannot be sold, traded or given away without permission from the registering agency.

It doesn't say what you can do with once it is your personal property...except that you need permission to transfer ownership. In most states, personal property can be used as the owner wishes, but that is not necessarily the case here...or is it???? The lawyers get rich on the ambiguity of the law :) .
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It is most decidedly not the case here. Not with many animal parts but that has to do with state law as well as Federal law.

About a year ago, a friend and person I do business with wanted to provide hand carved fresh ivory walrus tusks for knife makers. We consulted with officers from the USF&W service here who went further up. We were given two options;

1. Sell a blade to the native carver, he could attach a handle of any shape and he could sell the knife, it could then be resold to anyone but it could not be altered. It was a native handicraft.

2. We could buy carved handles from native carvers and sell them to knife makers for personal use to put on a knife. It had to be a "Significantly altered" piece of ivory like a carving of a seal or something (not just a tusk tip, and not just signed) The accepted definition of "significantly altered" is 70 percent of its surface area must be changed like with scrimshaw or carving. This definition has changed through the years and gotten higher each time. It had to be expressly carved as a knife handle for the terminal user and could not be resold after that guy put it on a blade. It could be bought and resold any amount of times but once attached to the blade it could not be sold. This is a real stretch in that normally native handicrafts cannot be altered.
 
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bladsmth said:
Yes, the rules can be read in several ways.
From the USF&W -

ARE THERE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS FOR BEACH FOUND PARTS?
Collected parts from sea otter, polar bear, and walrus must be presented to a Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) representative for registration and/or tagging. Parts from other marine mammal species must be registered with NMFS. Parts must be reported within 30 days of the find. Once these parts are registered, they become property of the finder and cannot be sold, traded or given away without permission from the registering agency.

It doesn't say what you can do with once it is your personal property...except that you need permission to transfer ownership. In most states, personal property can be used as the owner wishes, but that is not necessarily the case here...or is it???? The lawyers get rich on the ambiguity of the law :) .
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Make no mistake about it, walrus is a federally protected species and the laws apply in all states. They could and should be interpreted the same everywhere but lets face it, they're going to be interpreted and enforced differently depending on which officer or judge you bump into. I prefer to stay a healthy distance away from all of them.
 
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