It followed me home (Part 2)

[jake pogg]

I thought it was an overlaid bit because it was wavy but it's not.

How,exactly,have you determined that it's not?

and though severely pitted i could see there's still a lot of bit steel present

So if it's not two dissimilar alloys joined,than what sense does the above sentence make?

That line is a temper line!

Would you be so kind as to explain this term you used,in terms of physics?(as in what exactly causes the difference in color,when etched or visible otherwise)?.

 

[Yankee Josh]

I can tell this craftsman is a more modern axe. There's no signs of forge welding and to my understanding there's no point in forging a one piece axe just to add another piece. Plus i think, not "i know", that the f5 stamp dates it to the mid 20th century. Am i wrong in this belief?
As to the next question you left out the first half of the sentence. Inside the three parenthesis was the missing part.

(((It doesn't have a maker's mark)))and though severely pitted i could see there's still a lot of bit steel present.

So if it's not two dissimilar alloys joined,than what sense does the above sentence make?

Your question isn't all that clear to me but I was balancing the fact that it had no makers mark and was pitted against the fact that there was a lot of high carbon steel left. Really the amount of bit steel qualified the purchase.
And lastly. I said "this is a temper line".

"Would you be so kind as to explain this term you used,in terms of physics?(as in what exactly causes the difference in color,when etched or visible otherwise)?.[/QUOTE]
I feel that someone else, maybe forty two blades, or someone who understands the chemistry of axe making should answer this. A temper line is just where the bit tempering ends. Usually i would expect to find a flat or straight line due to liquid usually being level. But if it's bubbling or sloshing i can see how that in the first instant it's put in the quenching fluid it may leave a wavy line.
A) i hope i answered your questions.
B) I'm not sure if you were being slightly combative?
That's the problem with posting or texting in general. I haven't been at this all that long(about a year and a half) but I'm very interested in anything related to old tools and I've been careful to try and retain information gathered from either an original source or from someone i know is reputable. Anyway have a great day!

 

[jake pogg]

B) I'm not sure if you were being slightly combative?
That's the problem with posting or texting in general.

No,Josh,i was only trying to be brief,and to the point.And thank you for understanding,yes,it's very easy to come off sounding pissy,not my intent at all.
The information you list IS self-contradictory,but it's only too common to state things just in the way you have,and it's not fair to make you the fall-guy for these widespread misconceptions.

A) i hope i answered your questions.

But as to that,no,sir,unfortunately you haven't.
These are the two things i object toresuming to be able to tell,at a glance,whether a bit of dissimilar alloy composition was added(not as easily done,in all cases,often requiring very careful inquiry).

But mainly is the use of that mythical term,the "temper line".
I've asked a number of very knowledgeable people about that very thing in the past,and the more informed a person is,metallurgically,the more was their reaction to pass a judgement on this very confusing issue.
But the consensus tends to be that no,such thing cannot exist.
A forging,submerged in the quenchant partially,will Not form a distinct line that'd be visible later.
Reasons for this are many and sundry,such as the transition zone is not(cannot be)that abrupt,but rather gradual,also that Were such effect to take place the color-scheme would be all different(and still not abrupt,but involving a wide-ish transition area).

But,i've raised this very question before,and with no results,so i'll desist.

I do apologise for choosing your post to pick on,it's certainly nothing personal.Good for you for getting a hold of a nice old tool(sounds like,anyway,my connection speed won't let me see the images.....Enjoy!.

 

[A17]

I believe the pic of the pulaski will solve or disrupt the temper line myth. Right above the red you can see a light/dark line. These guys speculate why. "temper line"(on axes in particular) - Metallurgy and other enigmas - Bladesmith's Forum Board

 

[Yankee Josh]

No,Josh,i was only trying to be brief,and to the point.And thank you for understanding,yes,it's very easy to come off sounding pissy,not my intent at all.
The information you list IS self-contradictory,but it's only too common to state things just in the way you have,and it's not fair to make you the fall-guy for these widespread misconceptions.



But as to that,no,sir,unfortunately you haven't.
These are the two things i object toresuming to be able to tell,at a glance,whether a bit of dissimilar alloy composition was added(not as easily done,in all cases,often requiring very careful inquiry).

But mainly is the use of that mythical term,the "temper line".
I've asked a number of very knowledgeable people about that very thing in the past,and the more informed a person is,metallurgically,the more was their reaction to pass a judgement on this very confusing issue.
But the consensus tends to be that no,such thing cannot exist.
A forging,submerged in the quenchant partially,will Not form a distinct line that'd be visible later.
Reasons for this are many and sundry,such as the transition zone is not(cannot be)that abrupt,but rather gradual,also that Were such effect to take place the color-scheme would be all different(and still not abrupt,but involving a wide-ish transition area).

But,i've raised this very question before,and with no results,so i'll desist.

I do apologise for choosing your post to pick on,it's certainly nothing personal.Good for you for getting a hold of a nice old tool(sounds like,anyway,my connection speed won't let me see the images.....Enjoy!.

So are you inferring that an abrupt color change only denotes dissimilar steel?
I can clearly see on many axes and hatchets where the "temper" line is. I'll work up some photos to prove my point later this evening. I'm working on hanging that broad axe.

 

[jake pogg]

So are you inferring that an abrupt color change only denotes dissimilar steel?
I can clearly see on many axes and hatchets where the "temper" line is. I'll work up some photos to prove my point later this evening. I'm working on hanging that broad axe.

Yep.

And as A17 so handily reminded me,i've asked around about this issue.
For those that followed that link it's obvious that the consensus of the knife-making folks was that i'm full of beans,and one actually CAN see the demarcation line between the hardened and un-hardened portions of blade.
But i Still harbor doubt...For those guys's reference background is a very high state of surface finish/polish(some hundreds grit are mentioned in their responses though in actuality many of them think,and deal in Thousands).
Where here we often talk of some fairly neglected object,originally ground to 50 or so,used for many years,and crudely treated with vinegar...

We've discussed it here plenty,and i seem to recall Steve coming up with a very convincing evidence of a certified mono-steel head with that effect-abruptly separate dark area-very obvious and distinct(i believe it was a Vaughan product actually).

And STILL i persist in my foolish doubting Thomas mode...Which you,or anyone else in their right mind would be perfectly justified in ignoring completely.

However,to me it's important.And being too stupid and uneducated for researching it myself,i'm still waiting to hear someone state cogently that it's say "the lamellar Cementite lattice caused by an x-temperature differential in an alloy with y-hardening qualities et c.".

Because,see,that's how metallurgy works...It's 21st c. out there,and much is known...but This is still discussed on the level of mythology.
But again,it's a personal problem,and i'm (almost) sorry to dredge this up again.

Have a great time hanging that head,hope it comes out totally satisfactory,while being a joy to accomplish.

 

[A17]

I pulled this off of Bushcraft USA. Maybe this will help. The difference in coloration of the etch is caused by distinct crystalline structures. These are formed in the quench, not through tempering.

 

[Yankee Josh]

I pulled this off of Bushcraft USA. Maybe this will help. The difference in coloration of the etch is caused by distinct crystalline structures. These are formed in the quench, not through tempering.

That's what i meant this whole darn time. Was quenching. Until last year i mistakenly thought that the quenching process WAS the tempering process. And it's habit to still confuse the two. I even described quenching and called it tempering. I feel dumb. . Perhaps this is where the confusion started.

 

[quinton]

That darkened steel on an axe bit is definitely hardened, and much harder than the lighter colored bit above it. Applying some pressure with a knotted cup brush on an angle grinder to the line will prove that beyond doubt.

 

[Square_peg]

So are you inferring that an abrupt color change only denotes dissimilar steel?

Yep.

I pulled this off of Bushcraft USA. Maybe this will help. The difference in coloration of the etch is caused by distinct crystalline structures. These are formed in the quench, not through tempering.

Yes, it has to be quench line related. Otherwise how can we see the line in a Plumb mono-steel axe?

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/plumb-manufacturing-thread.1066763/#post-12177851

And I have a True Temper where the line crosses the top of the head exactly in line with the curve on each side. It's surely not showing an insert or overlay.

But I question why these lines are always curved and longest at the edges. I'm wondering if the increased mass in the center of the axe bleeds heat back over the quench line, changing the structure of the metal there. This way the line becomes a function of both heat and mass. This seems likely to me.

 

[jake pogg]

That darkened steel on an axe bit is definitely hardened, and much harder than the lighter colored bit above it. Applying some pressure with a knotted cup brush on an angle grinder to the line will prove that beyond doubt.

Yes,Sir,thank you,that is just so.
But is that hardness difference due to heat-treat,or are there two different steel alloys welded together?
For it just so happens that a certain % of Carbon(incidentally the very thing that makes steel hardenable,a nominal min. of 0.32%) makes alloy etch Dark(-er),than a low-carbon alloy.
Where the hardened portion of a solid steel forging does Not have that clear of a tendency...Actually,especially under a knotted cup brush,it'd have more of a chance to blend in,or to appear shinier...(being harder the scratches are smaller and reflect light differently).

Here's a funky deal:There're those that really like the look of that color difference(i'm one of them myself,i think it looks neat).And many of them work quite hard at achieving that effect.
And that,friends,is not at all easy.Some alloys are more suitable than others;some HT regimens are ditto;other details make it actually fairly challenging.
And then,as i said above,it then takes a rather high-grit finish to actually See the effect.(knotted cup-brush ain't in it...Circumstantial,yet still I've trouble computing that.

I pulled this off of Bushcraft USA. Maybe this will help. The difference in coloration of the etch is caused by distinct crystalline structures. These are formed in the quench, not through tempering.

Yes,thank you A17,'tis so. (though if one wants to be a stickler it must be said that although those structures of course are Formed in the quench,they're partially dissolved,and therefore affected in whatever degree, by tempering).
But yes,and no worries,we all loosely use the term "tempering" to mean hardening by creating different,harder structures within the steel.
I personally prefer HT,for heat-treatment.

 

[A17]

I was bucking up some pine trees when the mailman shows up with a package for me. "What could that be?" I open it to find this little guy poking out along with a note. It's a paper label S and N courtesy of Yankee Josh. A friend showed up about that time so I was momentarily delayed but I went to my workshop immediately afterward and cleaned, filed, whetted, and oiled it. Many thanks to the giver and rest assured, it will get a handle soon. Edited

 

[garry3]

Yep.

And as A17 so handily reminded me,i've asked around about this issue.
For those that followed that link it's obvious that the consensus of the knife-making folks was that i'm full of beans,and one actually CAN see the demarcation line between the hardened and un-hardened portions of blade.
But i Still harbor doubt...For those guys's reference background is a very high state of surface finish/polish(some hundreds grit are mentioned in their responses though in actuality many of them think,and deal in Thousands).
Where here we often talk of some fairly neglected object,originally ground to 50 or so,used for many years,and crudely treated with vinegar...

We've discussed it here plenty,and i seem to recall Steve coming up with a very convincing evidence of a certified mono-steel head with that effect-abruptly separate dark area-very obvious and distinct(i believe it was a Vaughan product actually).

And STILL i persist in my foolish doubting Thomas mode...Which you,or anyone else in their right mind would be perfectly justified in ignoring completely.

However,to me it's important.And being too stupid and uneducated for researching it myself,i'm still waiting to hear someone state cogently that it's say "the lamellar Cementite lattice caused by an x-temperature differential in an alloy with y-hardening qualities et c.".

Because,see,that's how metallurgy works...It's 21st c. out there,and much is known...but This is still discussed on the level of mythology.
But again,it's a personal problem,and i'm (almost) sorry to dredge this up again.

Have a great time hanging that head,hope it comes out totally satisfactory,while being a joy to accomplish.

You have brought up some good points Jake. I was just looking at three double bits from known manufactures, side by side. The only way I really know what is going on with two of them is I have the stamp and the I know that one is forge welded and one is mono and the third one I am not sure of. It's not always easy to tell. An acid etch sheds a little more light on things.

Here is a thread with some knife guys talking about the difference in a hamon vs a quench line. Probably nothing you haven't already read....
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/hamon-vs-quench-line.1169881/

 

[quinton]

Yes,Sir,thank you,that is just so.
But is that hardness difference due to heat-treat,or are there two different steel alloys welded together?
For it just so happens that a certain % of Carbon(incidentally the very thing that makes steel hardenable,a nominal min. of 0.32%) makes alloy etch Dark(-er),than a low-carbon alloy.
Where the hardened portion of a solid steel forging does Not have that clear of a tendency...Actually,especially under a knotted cup brush,it'd have more of a chance to blend in,or to appear shinier...(being harder the scratches are smaller and reflect light differently).

Here's a funky deal:There're those that really like the look of that color difference(i'm one of them myself,i think it looks neat).And many of them work quite hard at achieving that effect.
And that,friends,is not at all easy.Some alloys are more suitable than others;some HT regimens are ditto;other details make it actually fairly challenging.
And then,as i said above,it then takes a rather high-grit finish to actually See the effect.(knotted cup-brush ain't in it...Circumstantial,yet still I've trouble computing that.



Yes,thank you A17,'tis so. (though if one wants to be a stickler it must be said that although those structures of course are Formed in the quench,they're partially dissolved,and therefore affected in whatever degree, by tempering).
But yes,and no worries,we all loosely use the term "tempering" to mean hardening by creating different,harder structures within the steel.
I personally prefer HT,for heat-treatment.

I'm virtually positive this little Plumb head I refurbished, and hung awhile back is a mono steel forging. The Fayette R Plumb anchor brand hewing hatchet laying on the horse.. I'm not so sure.

 

[jake pogg]

Here is a thread with some knife guys talking about the difference in a hamon vs a quench line. Probably nothing you haven't already read....
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/hamon-vs-quench-line.1169881/

Thank you garry3,i've not read that before actually...Very good careful analysis,calling things by their proper names,i really appreciate such info and attitude...
And yes,seems like for a Potential of a clear demarcation it'd take a low-alloy,shallow(fast-)-hardening steel....It does happen to fit in with what most axes were normally forged out of...So the possibility still remains;however,it's just odd that it should be so easy and consistent, with most axes...

I'm virtually positive this little Plumb head I refurbished, and hung awhile back is a mono steel forging.

Thanks,Quinton,it's an interesting head(and an absolutely gorgeous piece of hickory And the shape&hang of that haft...Real beauty,that).

That Plumb brings to mind yet another difference:Often(not sure about this particular one,judging by photos is of course spotty),but the corrosion on the blade and the body is different.Clearly changing right at that controversial line.

Now in Theory the C content Does affect corrosion resistance(in a negative direction-the low-carbon steel is more corrosion-resistant).
I have found axe-heads where the pitting was very distinctly heavier on the blade.
Not surprising,of course,as the "darkness" on coloration is exactly that-corrosion.

But do we have that effect with isothermal HT,Does Martensite corrode readier than pearlite?....Unfortunately i don't know that.

 

[Mack]

I love big tools so I couldn't pass this beast up. I know that Collins may not measure up to some in quality but this four pounder sure measures up in bulk.

 

[phantomknives]

I love big tools so I couldn't pass this beast up. I know that Collins may not measure up to some in quality but this four pounder sure measures up in bulk.

nonsense my good sir, the quality of a collins is entirely dependent on it's age and this specimen is quite old judging by those bevels

 

[Mack]

nonsense my good sir, the quality of a collins is entirely dependent on it's age and this specimen is quite old judging by those bevels

That sir, is wonderful to hear.

 

[Miller '72]

A few things making a happier Thanksgiving that I was able to grab last night...

The two prizes that brought this treasure all to me...

Millers Falls NO 2

Millers Falls NO 87

Happy Thanksgiving

 

[Hickory n steel]

A few things making a happier Thanksgiving that I was able to grab last night...

The two prizes that brought this treasure all to me...

Millers Falls NO 2

Millers Falls NO 87

Happy Thanksgiving

Good little haul.

I really like that hatchet, any chance you'd be willing to sell ?
I keep looking but the only " old hatchet " I've come across was made in China
( For 50¢ it made a good beater for my brother though )