Italian Traditional Knives!!

draggat

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
2,329
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it here yet, but a couple of the knives I got from Consigli have a back spring, but are still made out of one piece of wood (or horn). Is this a standard tradional practice or something that they came up with?


You can see that the handle truly is one piece on this Gobbo

 

Âchillepattada

Gold Member
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
1,741
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it here yet, but a couple of the knives I got from Consigli have a back spring, but are still made out of one piece of wood (or horn). Is this a standard tradional practice or something that they came up with?


You can see that the handle truly is one piece on this Gobbo
Hello Steve,

You're totaly right. On most of the traditional knives of the continental Italy and in Sicily there is a spring but none of the Sardinian knives have one. The "archetto" is not a spring. It doesn't move .
In both cases the metal will protect the handle's material from the blade when the knife is open .

Even if I love the european-american folders I have to add one point in favour of the Sardinian strategy and I have had some experiences about it :
If, by accident a knife with a spring ( mainly when there is no half stop) closes your fingers will be touched . And with a fast-opening ( closing) liner lock system it will be worse.
But with a Sardinian knife with a good friction it won't happen because the closing will be slowed down by the friction.

Of course the Sardinian knives were part of the local culture and required an apprenticeship. But without any locking system they were used for every daily tasks including defence situations. So much so that Mussolini forbade those knives because too many fascists where killed or injured on the island .

The myth says that during the WWI the Sassary division ( always a symbol for the actual Sardinia) attacked abandoning their official bayonets and used their Pattada knives (which were a bit taller than the actual size ) .

Â
 

Âchillepattada

Gold Member
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
1,741
.... and who said that tradition is boring ? 😁

51274651555_9f59d870dc_c.jpg


51273623236_895caab349_c.jpg


Â
 

draggat

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
2,329
Hello Steve,

You're totaly right. On most of the traditional knives of the continental Italy and in Sicily there is a spring but none of the Sardinian knives have one. The "archetto" is not a spring. It doesn't move .
In both cases the metal will protect the handle's material from the blade when the knife is open .

Even if I love the european-american folders I have to add one point in favour of the Sardinian strategy and I have had some experiences about it :
If, by accident a knife with a spring ( mainly when there is no half stop) closes your fingers will be touched . And with a fast-opening ( closing) liner lock system it will be worse.
But with a Sardinian knife with a good friction it won't happen because the closing will be slowed down by the friction.

Of course the Sardinian knives were part of the local culture and required an apprenticeship. But without any locking system they were used for every daily tasks including defence situations. So much so that Mussolini forbade those knives because too many fascists where killed or injured on the island .

The myth says that during the WWI the Sassary division ( always a symbol for the actual Sardinia) attacked abandoning their official bayonets and used their Pattada knives (which were a bit taller than the actual size ) .

Â
Thanks for the reply. I find it pretty amazing when I hear stories of people using non locking folders as weapons because I would personally fear the blade closing on my hand. A few of those knives you showed earlier are almost swords! :oops:

I carry and use friction folders a lot and sometimes they do fold a bit in use but I've never cut myself with one..... yet!

I will take the good advice here and find an authentic Sardinian knife..... I am fascinated by these works of art!

Thank you all for sharing, this is a great thread
 

Âchillepattada

Gold Member
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
1,741
I carry and use friction folders a lot and sometimes they do fold a bit in use but I've never cut myself with one..... yet!
Another very interesting security element that has been explained to me :

48809364821_b61c6aff3b_c.jpg


If you look carefully a Pattada knife you will notice that the axis is NEVER on the middle of the handle. So even if the point of the blade seems to be centered (as a spear point ) in reality the point of the blade is always upper than the axis .
Mechanically when your knife will touch a hard surface the blade will go up which is impossible and not down what could be dangerous for your fingers .

esquisse.jpg

Â
 

waynorth

Dealer / Materials Provider
Joined
Nov 19, 2005
Messages
26,444
Another very interesting security element that has been explained to me :

48809364821_b61c6aff3b_c.jpg


If you look carefully a Pattada knife you will notice that the axis is NEVER on the middle of the handle. So even if the point of the blade seems to be centered (as a spear point ) in reality the point of the blade is always upper than the axis .
Mechanically when your knife will touch a hard surface the blade will go up which is impossible and not down what could be dangerous for your fingers .

View attachment 1590377

Â
Astounding!! Great explanation, Â !! The "simple" Pattada never ceases to amaze!! 😲
Decades of evolution!!:cool:
 

RayseM

Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
6,935
Another very interesting security element that has been explained to me :
If you look carefully a Pattada knife you will notice that the axis is NEVER on the middle of the handle. So even if the point of the blade seems to be centered (as a spear point ) in reality the point of the blade is always upper than the axis .
Mechanically when your knife will touch a hard surface the blade will go up which is impossible and not down what could be dangerous for your fingers .

View attachment 1590377

Â

Now that you "point" it out, that is so obvious but even with them in hand I had not noticed that detail. Thank you  for helping me to appreciate my knives more and becoming more observant of the nuances of practical applied design. Very very cool :cool: :thumbsup:
 

RayseM

Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
6,935
Having a conversation with David Steri about building a small Dorgalese. He says ~

"Con questa modello (Dorgalese) il problema è che se riduco troppo le misure , ci sarà un problema di robustezza del coltello stesso , se guardi la posizione dei perni ci sono degli spazi da rispettare sia per il buon funzionamento , sia per la linea che diventerebbe troppo tozza e magari sgraziata ...

Il modello Pattada o Arbus hanno degli spazi di lavoro più comodi e la riduzione può avvenire senza stravolgere la linea e la funzionalità ."


Which we all know to mean ~ :)

"With this model ( Dorgalese) the problem is that if I reduce the measurements too much, there will be a problem of sturdiness of the knife itself, if you look at the position of the pins there are spaces to be respected both for good functioning and for the line that would become too squat and maybe awkward ...

The Pattada or Arbus model have more comfortable work spaces and the reduction can take place without upsetting the line and functionality."

I must admit - to your point Charlie, waynorth waynorth - I can't see it. :confused: Even with Davide saying so I'm a dunce to understand. I can readily see that the differences of the Arbus model but of the Pattada and the Dorgalese, even though I have a model of each in hand, I cannot see the difference - other than the earlier mentioned slanted bolster of the Dorgalese. The stop of the folded blade on the smaller Pattada is deeper than the that of the Dorgalese but there is no obvious difference when the blades are open. Both have the offset pivot pin as described by Âchillepattada Âchillepattada .

Still - I must say that the Dorgalese - somehow - seems more elegant. :thumbsup:

Will someone please unveil this mystery for us - Âchillepattada Âchillepattada ? J-M, what are the physical/mechanical differences between these two Sardinian knife traditions? Maybe Davide will be willing and able to explain more.

EDIT - This just in from Davide Steri ~ "This of Gigi has another yet different form, each cutler has his own variant in fact. Tomorrow I will send you some photos of the templates in order to better understand what I mean, we are talking about 5/7 decree mi of mm, which however would not close the blade or could not act as a wire guard .... tomorrow I will take photos."

So - good. Class will continue tomorrow!
 
Last edited:

waynorth

Dealer / Materials Provider
Joined
Nov 19, 2005
Messages
26,444
Having a conversation with David Steri about building a small Dorgalese. He says ~

"Con questa modello (Dorgalese) il problema è che se riduco troppo le misure , ci sarà un problema di robustezza del coltello stesso , se guardi la posizione dei perni ci sono degli spazi da rispettare sia per il buon funzionamento , sia per la linea che diventerebbe troppo tozza e magari sgraziata ...

Il modello Pattada o Arbus hanno degli spazi di lavoro più comodi e la riduzione può avvenire senza stravolgere la linea e la funzionalità ."


Which we all know to means ~ :)

"With this model ( Dorgalese) the problem is that if I reduce the measurements too much, there will be a problem of sturdiness of the knife itself, if you look at the position of the pins there are spaces to be respected both for good functioning and for the line that would become too squat and maybe awkward ...

The Pattada or Arbus model have more comfortable work spaces and the reduction can take place without upsetting the line and functionality."

I must admit - to your point Charlie, waynorth waynorth - I can't see it. :confused: Even with Davide saying so I'm a dunce to understand. I can readily see that the differences of the Arbus model but of the Pattada and the Dorgalese, even though I have a model of each in hand, I cannot see the difference - other than the earlier mentioned slanted bolster of the Dorgalese. The stop of the folded blade on the smaller Pattada is deeper than the that of the Dorgalese but there is no obvious difference when the blades are open. Both have the offset pivot pin as described by Âchillepattada Âchillepattada .

Still - I must say that the Dorgalese - somehow - seems more elegant. :thumbsup:

Will someone please unveil this mystery for us - Âchillepattada Âchillepattada ? J-M, what are the physical/mechanical differences between these two Sardinian knife traditions? Maybe Davide will be willing and able to explain more.

EDIT - This just in from Davide Steri ~ "This of Gigi has another yet different form, each cutler has his own variant in fact. Tomorrow I will send you some photos of the templates in order to better understand what I mean, we are talking about 5/7 decree mi of mm, which however would not close the blade or could not act as a wire guard .... tomorrow I will take photos."

So - good. Class will continue tomorrow!
Subtleties indeed!! I eagerly await the next lesson!! :oops:
 

RayseM

Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
6,935
PART II ~

From Davide ~


"If you look closely at the photos, especially in the closed position, you will notice that the space dedicated to the pins for the bow is always smaller for the same size.

The Dorgalese (last at the bottom) has a narrower and more elegant fit and a more accentuated blade belly, consequently reducing the size too much would lose a lot of elegance and functionality, I would have to keep a disproportionate final height of the handle for a good functioning .

Keep in mind that it is a knife made to last over time, you cannot accept too many compromises, otherwise it becomes another knife 😀"

0.jpg


0-1.jpg


Starting to sink in ... :)
 

Jack Black

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
53,390
Another very interesting security element that has been explained to me :

48809364821_b61c6aff3b_c.jpg


If you look carefully a Pattada knife you will notice that the axis is NEVER on the middle of the handle. So even if the point of the blade seems to be centered (as a spear point ) in reality the point of the blade is always upper than the axis .
Mechanically when your knife will touch a hard surface the blade will go up which is impossible and not down what could be dangerous for your fingers .

View attachment 1590377

Â

A fascinating piece of information :) :thumbsup:
 
Top