Itc-100; questioning the efficiency.

The way I look at it is that without satanite, itc-100 is worth it. It acts as a sealant so you don't have problems with breathing the wool fibers and it helps a bit with the heat. I have known some guys that it has helped a ton with heat too.

I guess this thread is officially resurrected? :)
 
Javan, is your use of the higher temp wool under a cast liner a requirement for a welding forge, or a result of your welding sessions being many times longer than most peoples? The reason I ask being that I can buy regular inswool and Mizzou locally, but I'm having a hard time finding the higher temp version short of ordering from the US at many times the cost.
 
The Ceramic Fiber temperature rating seems to be based on shrinkage, which is a far bigger issue in many industrial applications than it is in "our" forges.

In many industrial applications, the ceramic fiber is used as modules, typically 12" square and 4-8" thick. Shrinkage at the hot face will tend to open up the joints to a V-shaped groove and, once it does so, there is obviously less insulation thickness below the bottom of the groove than at the middle of the module.

If you use 2300 degF rated blanket, it does not suddenly melt into a dribbly puddle at 2301 degF. The higher-rated blanket (2600 degF) uses a mix of the same fibers as the 2300, with Zirconia fibers which show less shrinkage. The melting temperature of both blankets is essentially the same: the point at which the AluminoSilicate Fibers start to melt.

If you can get the 2600-rated blanket at sensible cost, it's a no-brainer to use it. However, if you cannot, the 2300 will work fine behind Mizzou or similar.
 
Javan, is your use of the higher temp wool under a cast liner a requirement for a welding forge, or a result of your welding sessions being many times longer than most peoples? The reason I ask being that I can buy regular inswool and Mizzou locally, but I'm having a hard time finding the higher temp version short of ordering from the US at many times the cost.


In my experience, the 2300 degree material simply doesn't hold up long term for long welding sessions. It'll work for a while, but wears out an order of magnitude faster, and really isn't forgiving for temps above the carbon damascus requirements.

I can also tell you, that after switching to thermocouples, after years of welding by eye, that it's brutally obvious that most welding forges people are running without them, are running at 2400+ degrees typically. That high yellow/white color you see inside a forge, is well above 2300, and the lower temp stuff is not meant to be run continuously even at 2300, it's continuous rate limit, I believe is 2100 degrees.


The 2700-3000 degree versions, will last 10x as long and don't break down and look like cotton candy if your cast-able gets a chunk blown off.

As far as a cast or troweled liner of castable, that's mostly for heath, and durability. Although a good insulating castable gives you some extra insulative value also, as opposed to being a further heat-sink.

Swinging around really long billets, gets destructive, and the heavier they get (and the longer you forge), the more likely, in my experience, you are to stab the end of a billet into some wall or corner of your forge. I actually line the floor of mine (I have to use a horizontal forge that can heat up the entirety of my billets, for using the rolling mill), with split extreme duty high alumina hard firebrick, and the entrance with hard brick also, because otherwise they just get destroyed, not from flux but from the billets themselves.



If I was building another vertical welding forge (which I believe is the best bet for most makers, without a rolling mill, and what I used for years also), I'd want the high temp insulation, Mizzuo liner, and a entry and exit made of insulation backed high alumina hard brick, with steel reinforcements, and a bottom made of the same, preferably hinged tops and bottoms for access.

If you can only find the lower temp ceramic fiber, I'd want to cast the liner, instead of troweling it on, and I'd want it a minimum of half an inch thick.

Regardless, I'd highly recommend 3" of insulation to anybody, over 2, but if you just do short sessions (2 hours at a time or so), it may be overkill. Guys I know that run large pottery kilns with 2,000,000 BTU/h in burners, running for a couple of days, utilize like 6-8" of insulating brick, and often cover all that with another 2" or more of ceramic fiber, and seem to always wish they had more. Even with 3" of high temp blanket, and a liner around my forge body, after 8 hours, the shell will still be hot enough to sear steaks, cause immediate and severe burns, etc.



They've got ceramic fiber rated at 3100-3200 deg now with continuous use limits at 2800 now, I plan to try and source some of this for my next build personally.


Also, I will add, that when sourcing this stuff, if you can find a semi-local industrial refractory supplier for the manufacturer, you can buy any of these things for usually half of retail, and avoid the most expensive aspect, which is typically shipping. Usually whenever one of my friends is needing this stuff, one of us will go to Charlotte or Atlanta, and pickup a box or two for all of us. Check with the manufacturers of each for their distributors, which often are different.

Bear in mind also, that there are a few different manufacturers of the same basic materials. Checkout Saffil, it's 96% Polycrystaline Alumina Oxide, with a 2900 degree continuous use rating, and 3600 degree melting temp, this is a product from Unifrax.

There's also some 3000 degree rated "Kaowool" branded products, like Kaowool Gold, but I'm not sure which are available in blanket vs bulk form.
 
Well, in our forge use, especially in the presence of borax flux, it's the silica in anything that breaks down, including the standard hard brick. Avoiding silica binders as much as possible improves longevity, as Alumina/Zirconia/etc. isn't affected the same way. So temp ratings and melt points are one part of the equation, but unless you're certain that you're never going to use fluxes, you need to factor that in also, as liquid borates "melt" the silica binders, regardless of the solo melting temps of the refractories themselves.
 
Thanks for the info, I'll call around some more and see what I can dig up. Worst case I'll cast a 1/2-1" Mizzou liner.
 
Buying both satanite and ITC 100 is out of my budget range, if i had to go with either 5 lb of satanite or 1 pint of ITC 100, which would be ideal?

Also, would it be fine to use ITC 100 on kaowool b itself, without hardener or refractory underneath?
 
Good afternoon, Charles. Welcome. FYI this thread is over 2 years old and 'necroposting' or bringing up old threads is generally frowned upon. It's better to start a new thread here and link to the older one if necessary.
Without any other more information on what exactly you are doing, it's hard to give the best answer, but if building a forge, this can be done but won't last very long. Putting the hot chunks of steel down on it in the forge will just crush the kaowool, and the ITC
100 will crumble in a short period of time. I'd guess you'd need 1/2" (or more) thick layer of ITC to stand up to the abuse. Now if you were going to use bricks or something else as the floor of your forge, then perhaps this would last a little longer.
 
Just a note to bring up a previous offer:
I still have many 80# bags of Kast-o-lite 30 (3000° castable refractory). This stuff makes great forge linings. It runs about $80 a bag if you buy it, but it is free to anyone who wants to come to Norfolk and pick a few bags up.
You can spread it like satanite or cast tubular liners and half-dome shells for ribbon burner forges from it. It also makes a superior forge floor coating.
 
Just a note to bring up a previous offer:
I still have many 80# bags of Kast-o-lite 30 (3000° castable refractory). This stuff makes great forge linings. It runs about $80 a bag if you buy it, but it is free to anyone who wants to come to Norfolk and pick a few bags up.
You can spread it like satanite or cast tubular liners and half-dome shells for ribbon burner forges from it. It also makes a superior forge floor coating.

Is it still good after these years? I find that after about 6 months I see a definite difference in consistency when mixing other refractories. I don't use Kastolite much, not available around here. Luckily, I'm at the point where a pallet only lasts around 6 months, so not a big deal. Sure wish I was in Norfolk to visit. . . maybe next year
 
Is it still good after these years? I find that after about 6 months I see a definite difference in consistency when mixing other refractories. I don't use Kastolite much, not available around here. Luckily, I'm at the point where a pallet only lasts around 6 months, so not a big deal. Sure wish I was in Norfolk to visit. . . maybe next year
I know the refractory for the boiler cells had dates on them and had to be used by x date.
 
I haven't mixed any in a while, but it seemed fine the last bag I did. I know a few folks who got a bag from me had no issue with it. I'll have to mix up a bag and pour a liner to see if it has any issue. The bags have been stored in a dry and temperature controlled place.
 
I never understood the expiration date. Then again I ignore them on food as well and I’m still alive.
 
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