Its been like 15years - do we have a winner in VG10 vs 154cm?

[stonproject]

Is there a difference between the VG-10 as heat-treated in Japan as compared to the VG-10 heat-treated in China? And is the Chinese heat-treated version really VG-10, or some mystery steel that's only stamped as such?

Jim

I think the heat treat will change between factories so it's hard to answer your first question definitively.

As for the second, many Chinese factories import American and European steels like s35vn and m390, so I don't doubt the reputable Chinese companies are properly labeling their knives when they say they use VG10

 

[Lapedog]

This is the graph with n690co added in for fun. http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=VG10,154CM, n690co&ni=643,51,,&hrn=1&gm=0

There is a z knives ap for smart phones that let you compare the different steels. At the bottom of the chart there is a little icon shaped like an atom. Click on that atom and it will give you a list lf every element in the steels you have on the chart. If you click on one of the elements in the list it will tell you what it does exactly.

 

[cbrstar]

I have articles on the composition design for VG-10 and 154CM. I don't think I have anything comparing them directly to each other. It does talk about relative properties and what the Mo and Co do.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/14/why-there-is-cobalt-in-vg-10/

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/21/154cm-development-properties-legacy/

In general I would expect VG-10 to be a little tougher with a little lower wear resistance.

The comparison comes from when Spyderco dumped ATS-34 in favor for VG10 and touted it as a super steel.

 

[Larrin]

The comparison comes from when Spyderco dumped ATS-34 in favor for VG10 and touted it as a super steel.

Got it.

 

[knarfeng]

VG10 should be somewhat tougher because of the finer grain structure, though I have no data to back that up, just the composition. The small amount of vanadium produces a finer grain structure.

Some years ago, I tested blades made of the two alloys side by side cutting manila rope. Each blade was profiled to have a bevel of 15° per side. The VG10 blade had a measured hardness of 59. The 154CM blade had a measured hardness of 60.
I found no noticeable difference in edge retention between them. I'm not sure if the hardness difference means that the VG10 is actually better. It's never been clear to me that a single hardness point is significant. Howsoever, they are pretty darn close in edge retention.

There is a chart and an explanation of the technique in this thread:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...-alloys-using-a-visual-inspection-tec.641279/

 

[SteelJunkee]

How precise is todays Rockwell Chart ? I mean A knife manufacturer who states his blades are 59HRC Do we assume it is between 57 and 62 or we can we assume it is really 59 ? A manufacture that says between 55-58 is it 53-61 ???? How harder is really 60 compared to 59 ? What metal could be 1 Rockwell hard ? My brain just cant size this down to relative proportions, lolll.

 

[Wowbagger]

I'm not much help. I will say what I can. I'm easy on my edges in that I don't chip them much and tend to be careful with them though I do cut a bunch of abrasive stuff.

By default I have ended up with a bunch of VG-10 in part because my Grail Brad Zinker Urban Trappers come with that steel.
I have only one CPM-154, a Mini Grip which has always done well for me but doesn't get a lot of carry time due to just having other things I like to carry too. The Mini Grip is a great knife that I want to carry more now that I finally bought one.
I have one N690, a Pattada by Spyderco which could not be better ! Super great heat treat; love the way it sharpens too ! ! !

So all I can really say is none of the VG-10 that I have, six examples or so, have ever disappointed me in the least. Never ever chipped one; does not tend to roll in my uses.

Until just now I didn't realize it was considered to have large carbides. I tend to enjoy steel with fine grain / carbides like White Paper steel and CTS-XHP.

I wouldn't turn down a knife with any of the three alloys (VG-10, CPM-154 or N690).
I do tend to shy away from the more stainless alloys and gravitate toward the ones that stain for how they are in general (M4) so I look forward to getting some serious CPM-154 to try that out.
Sounds like that might mean getting it in a custom.
Maybe a custom single blade slip joint largish Trapper. Oh yeah ! ! ! that sounds pretty good to me.
I love this hobby / always something to look forward to.

 

[Wowbagger]

. It's never been clear to me that a single hardness point is significant.

I have no actual measurements to go on but I swear the SS steel on my Case Trapper with Genuine Stag scales is harder than ANY of my many other SS Case Trappers that should be identical.
I can't imagine that the diff is more than a point.
Maybe I'm dreaming but the knife proves its self in use every time and even the factory grind-and-buff edge held up seriously longer and cut better than any of the other same SS Case Trappers have.
All I can say is : ? ? ? ?

 

[Smaug]

Please, let's not cop out and refer to heat treat. I think we can just assume that for the sake of this question we're talking about the the capability of the steel, when finished and heat treated properly.

VG-10 is pretty clearly better.

 

[SteelJunkee]

how does price compares, I`m not able to compare toughness (in numbers) but in real life... the winner is.... 154cm.

Edit: More cardboard, more pizza***, more staples.... and in the woods... this is good, really good stuff.

*** the guy cut the table, lolll.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

Nothing scientific about this for me ... just from my personal experiences ... I find I prefer VG10 ...

it gets scarey sharp easily ... and in the knives I have in VG10 is seems to be a bit tougher ... I have never chipped VG10 but I have chipped 154CM ...

performance wise for me they are fairly equal.

 

[SteelJunkee]

Nothing scientific about this for me ... just from my personal experiences ... I find I prefer VG10 ...

it gets scarey sharp easily ... and in the knives I have in VG10 is seems to be a bit tougher ... I have never chipped VG10 but I have chipped 154CM ...

performance wise for me they are fairly equal.

Lolll quite opposite experience

 

[Lapedog]

VG10 should be somewhat tougher because of the finer grain structure, though I have no data to back that up, just the composition. The small amount of vanadium produces a finer grain structure.

Some years ago, I tested blades made of the two alloys side by side cutting manila rope. Each blade was profiled to have a bevel of 15° per side. The VG10 blade had a measured hardness of 59. The 154CM blade had a measured hardness of 60.
I found no noticeable difference in edge retention between them. I'm not sure if the hardness difference means that the VG10 is actually better. It's never been clear to me that a single hardness point is significant. Howsoever, they are pretty darn close in edge retention.

There is a chart and an explanation of the technique in this thread:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...-alloys-using-a-visual-inspection-tec.641279/

My understanding is asingle hardness point actually can make a huge difference because the Rockwell scale is a logarithmic scale. Thus the difference between 2hrc and 3hrc is greater than the difference between 1hrc and 2hrc and so on. So by the time you get to 59hrc the distance to 60hrc is quite large.

 

[Lapedog]

Please, let's not cop out and refer to heat treat. I think we can just assume that for the sake of this question we're talking about the the capability of the steel, when finished and heat treated properly.

VG-10 is pretty clearly better.

I find these charts comparing these properties of steels very dubious.

 

[AntDog]

VG10 has been much better in my own personal experience. It stays sharper longer, doesn't roll as much. It tends to take an absolutely wicked edge too.

 

[Lapedog]

1 vote here for 154cm. In purely subjective experience vg10 seems more “jagged” whereas 154cm seems more “smooth”

Also vg10 seems especially to benefit from higher grif snarpenings in my experience.

Then again 154cm is one of my favourite steels so my word is entirely biased.

They are definitely in the same tier of steels though.

 

[knarfeng]

My understanding is asingle hardness point actually can make a huge difference because the Rockwell scale is a logarithmic scale. Thus the difference between 2hrc and 3hrc is greater than the difference between 1hrc and 2hrc and so on. So by the time you get to 59hrc the distance to 60hrc is quite large.

What you want is for the blade edge not to deform. It deforms at the yield point. So Yield Strength should be the significant measurement that tells you what you want to know about edge retention vs. Rockwell hardness. The relationship between Yield strength and and Rockwell hardness is linear.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a016166.pdf

THE ESTIMATION OF YIELD STRENGTH FROM HARDNESS MEASUREMENTS:
Abstract:
Data are presented to show that the yield strength of gun steel and AISI4340 alloy can be estimated from Rockwell hardness measurements. The expression, YS = 4.226Rc, where YS is the 0.1% offset yield strength in ksi and Rc is the Rockwell C hardness of the material, was developed statistically to fit the data. It is shown that the yield strength within a gun tube forging can be estimated from the hardness measurements taken on a small flat area ground on the OD of the gun tube.

The difference in yield strength between a Rockwell 59 and a Rockwell 60 is a couple of percent.
It's not clear to me this will have an overwhelming effect on edge retention. The relationship of all the measurements with what is actually happening during the cutting process is complex, so maybe it does, but it's not obvious to me.

Small differences in Rockwell hardness becomes even more nebulous if different Rockwell machines were used to measure the knives. The standards used to calibrate Rockwell machines are only accurate to ±0.5 units. So two different machines, calibrated on two different standards, are only guaranteed to match each other ±1. If you are going by the manufacturers' data, then it's going to be two different machines. So in that case, if one blade is measured at 59 and another at 60, you don't really know that they are different hardnesses.
Note: I used the same Rockwell machine and same calibration standard in all the measurements I made.

 

[Larrin]

Please, let's not cop out and refer to heat treat. I think we can just assume that for the sake of this question we're talking about the the capability of the steel, when finished and heat treated properly.

VG-10 is pretty clearly better.

While the charts are visually impressive, they are not based on experiments so they are no more definitive than the other opinions in this thread.

 

[dirc]

Larrin is right...

Here is my opinion: (where >> means 'better than' or 'greater than')
cpm-154 >> vg-10 >> 154cm

 

[Mo2]

I do prefer my cpm-154 over all the other knives I have in the steels mentioned here. But it's usa made and heat treated. Three rivers manufacturing bt1000 ... Not an idea slicer but fair enough for most tasks. It's tough and keeps an edge well. No chipping, decent edge stability. Sharpens easily.

I think there are to many variables to say which is better overall. I would guess that vg10 has a higher edge retention with the right geometry. But if chipping or contact with hard bone is an issue 154 may be better suited.