Its French its old and thats all I know

[Jack Black]

Interesting old knife. That's very helpful information Littleknife :thumbup:

By coincidence, I was looking at an unusual French knife with a violin mark in Sheffield just the other day.

 

[Jolipapa]

You are welcome, Sir.

I hope Jolipapa will join the discussion and can provide more help.

Not much to add, you said quite all :thumbup:. The knife is an Agenais (# from Agen city and around in the South-West, just in the middle of the road from Toulouse to Bordeaux ) and is probably very old and was mainly used by women for kitchen purposes.It is said to derive from the Jambette (small leg) made in St Etienne on the other side of the Massif Central mountains . St Amans and bonnet derive from this pattern.
Btw Agen earend her reputation thanks to the dry prunes (still now). If you ever cross the way of a bottle of Souillac 's prune, have a try, this is heaven in bottle!

Southpaw your knife is very typical of the pattern with the sawtooth festooning. I don't think ivory, would rather think of bone or blond (local) cow horn.
Yatagan comes from the Turkish sword name, clip in USA.
This picture (sorry for poor quality) shows a Cognet (of Douk douk fame) on top, made in the beginning of the XXth cent. Looks very much like your , this can be a hint for the age. (from D Pascal's couteaux de poche book)

You have more pictures here : http://www.lecouteau.info/couteaux-r%C3%A9gionaux-traditionnels/l-agenais-les-jambettes/
Again as littleknife said, Gimel was a company absorbd by Rousselon (the name still exists for kitchen knives). Both from Thiers. The violin was the trade mark and they made lots of knives, here a boule (bowl) not mine alas! You can find some fromtime to time on the great bay. The carbon blades can be very sharp!

(picture borrowed from chtiforum)
The long-distance influence is Arab (the Saracens were defeated in 732 by Charles Martel in Poitiers - that's about half way in France near the Atlantic shore - and some stayed and later amalgated and brought new technics, also in cutlery I guess).

littleknife Very interesting info. I thought it had a Spanish flavour to it and since the Basque country is in both Spain and France it makes sense.

"Jolipapa! Ou est vous monsieur?"

Thanks, Will

Sorry! Yesterday has been a bit hectic with friends back from holiday. Went home early and had a slow start this morning! Now I must hurry before the market closes if I want to have fresh food for the week-end!

pps for those complaining of the blade touching the spring, the ancient cutlers used to put a small piece of leather near the pivot.

 

[southpaw357]

Jolipapa, you are a wealth of information sir, thank you! I am blown away. The porch is a special place indeed. Thank you everyone for your feedback and have a terrific weekend. Regards, Ben


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[littleknife]

Again as littleknife said, Gimel was a company absorbd by Rousselon (the name still exists for kitchen knives). Both from Thiers. The violin was the trade mark and they made lots of knives, here a boule (bowl) not mine alas! You can find some fromtime to time on the great bay. The carbon blades can be very sharp!

(picture borrowed from chtiforum)

The long-distance influence is Arab (the Saracens were defeated in 732 by Charles Martel in Poitiers - that’s about half way in France near the Atlantic shore - and some stayed and later amalgated and brought new technics, also in cutlery I guess).

Jolipapa, thank you for the plethora of additional information! :thumbup: :thumbup:

The handle shape of the Agenais definitely resembles that of the typical Spanish navaja, which is considered to be influenced by North African Arabic/Moorish examples itself.

And the chain of cultural influence does not end here!

There is a traditional Hungarian pocketknife pattern, called ‘fejes görbe bicska’ (literally: ‘a curved pocketknife with a head-bolster’):

http://www.bicska.hu/wpress/wp-content/gallery/szakdolgozat-kepek/image047.jpg

The style of the pattern clearly shows some ‘Eastern’ influence, including the yatagan style blade and the sinuous handle shape.
The earliest known examples are from the early to mid 19th Century.
There is a great deal of speculation regarding the origin of this pattern.
Some say, that it is an indigenous Hungarian pattern, because the handle shape resembles that of the saber handles of the 17th-18th Century Hungarian ‘kuruc’ freedom fighters.
Others claim that it is a descendant of the Bosnian muslim bicak-style pocketknives. The Austro-Hungarian Empire occupied Ottoman Bosnia in the mid-19th Century, so this is not a completely unreasonable speculation.
The most likely explanation is that the pattern or its predecessor was brought to Hungary from Germany or other Western European countries by journeyman cutlers.
A likely candidate is Jozsef Sziraky, one of the most famous Hungarian cutlers who worked in 19th Century Szeged, a city in Southern Hungary.
Some have speculated that the likely source of the pattern was either directly the Spanish navaja or - through French mediation - the French Laguiole.
But the ‘Boule Yatagan’ pattern you posted above seems to be even more similar to the Hungarian pattern in question, so I would speculate that it was actually the French Boule Yatagan pattern which served as the main and direct inspiration for the Hungarian ‘fejes görbe bicska’ pattern:

http://i89.servimg.com/u/f89/12/49/35/11/gimel11.jpg

http://catalogue.gazette-drouot.com/images/perso/phare/LOT/38/2286/6352_couteau8.jpg

Of course the handle shape behind the bolster is different on the Hungarian knife, but that might be the local (Hungarian) flavor - and it too could be derived from other, Sheffield and Solingen type of handle shapes (e.g. the serpentine handle shape familiar from the ‘folding hunter’).

If that is true, we have yet another remarkable example the way the great French cutlery tradition inspired the pocketknife traditions of other European countries, from England (Sheffield) to Germany (Solingen) and beyond.

 

[Jolipapa]

Jolipapa, thank you for the plethora of additional information! :thumbup: :thumbup:

The handle shape of the Agenais definitely resembles that of the typical Spanish navaja, which is considered to be influenced by North African Arabic/Moorish examples itself.

And the chain of cultural influence does not end here!

There is a traditional Hungarian pocketknife pattern, called ‘fejes görbe bicska’ (literally: ‘a curved pocketknife with a head-bolster’):

http://www.bicska.hu/wpress/wp-content/gallery/szakdolgozat-kepek/image047.jpg

The style of the pattern clearly shows some ‘Eastern’ influence, including the yatagan style blade and the sinuous handle shape.
The earliest known examples are from the early to mid 19th Century.
There is a great deal of speculation regarding the origin of this pattern.
Some say, that it is an indigenous Hungarian pattern, because the handle shape resembles that of the saber handles of the 17th-18th Century Hungarian ‘kuruc’ freedom fighters.
Others claim that it is a descendant of the Bosnian muslim bicak-style pocketknives. The Austro-Hungarian Empire occupied Ottoman Bosnia in the mid-19th Century, so this is not a completely unreasonable speculation.
The most likely explanation is that the pattern or its predecessor was brought to Hungary from Germany or other Western European countries by journeyman cutlers.
A likely candidate is Jozsef Sziraky, one of the most famous Hungarian cutlers who worked in 19th Century Szeged, a city in Southern Hungary.
Some have speculated that the likely source of the pattern was either directly the Spanish navaja or - through French mediation - the French Laguiole.
But the ‘Boule Yatagan’ pattern you posted above seems to be even more similar to the Hungarian pattern in question, so I would speculate that it was actually the French Boule Yatagan pattern which served as the main and direct inspiration for the Hungarian ‘fejes görbe bicska’ pattern:

http://i89.servimg.com/u/f89/12/49/35/11/gimel11.jpg

http://catalogue.gazette-drouot.com/images/perso/phare/LOT/38/2286/6352_couteau8.jpg

Of course the handle shape behind the bolster is different on the Hungarian knife, but that might be the local (Hungarian) flavor - and it too could be derived from other, Sheffield and Solingen type of handle shapes (e.g. the serpentine handle shape familiar from the ‘folding hunter’).

If that is true, we have yet another remarkable example the way the great French cutlery tradition inspired the pocketknife traditions of other European countries, from England (Sheffield) to Germany (Solingen) and beyond.

Fejes görbe literally means curved with head. This could applie to a lot of swords used by Turks and over that to a lot of mid-oriental shapes.
Old Hugarian came from somewhere in Asia/Siberia and have often been accompanied by Turkish tribes or parents during their migrations toward Pannonia. Then the country has been occupied for a very long time by the Turks before the Austrians kicked them out. This must have left some traces.
Sziráky family is best known for the fish-knife.
I could not say if there ever has been a french influence on knives in Hungary.

There will be a controversy till the end of the ages about who influenced who between navaja and laguiole. When asked about that subject the old Thiers makers will say with a chuckle that for centuries 90% of navajas sold in Spain did come from Thiers. With the same chuckle they will admit that after war they imported a lot of cheap laguioles from Spain (now they come from Pakistan, read Bougnat :barf.

edit : just a clue : the shape of the Laguiole as we know today is quite recent. In the 19th cent. they were quite straight à la Roquefort.

 

[littleknife]

Fejes görbe literally means curved with head. This could applie to a lot of swords used by Turks and over that to a lot of mid-oriental shapes.
Old Hugarian came from somewhere in Asia/Siberia and have often been accompanied by Turkish tribes or parents during their migrations toward Pannonia. Then the country has been occupied for a very long time by the Turks before the Austrians kicked them out. This must have left some traces.
Sziráky family is best known for the fish-knife.
I could not say if there ever has been a french influence on knives in Hungary.

There will be a controversy till the end of the ages about who influenced who between navaja and laguiole. When asked about that subject the old Thiers makers will say with a chuckle that for centuries 90% of navajas sold in Spain did come from Thiers. With the same chuckle they will admit that after war they imported a lot of cheap laguioles from Spain (now they come from Pakistan, read Bougnat :barf.

edit : just a clue : the shape of the Laguiole as we know today is quite recent. In the 19th cent. they were quite straight à la Roquefort.

Jolipapa, thanks for the new information!

That seems to rule out the Laguiole as an inspiration for the Hungarian ‘fejes görbe’ pattern.
I still would not rule out “the French connection” though.
Most traditional Hungarian pocketknife patterns were created in the 19th Century.
All cutlers - most of whom were of German ethnicity - were members of the cutlers’ guild and most did a journeyman training abroad, mostly in German states or other Western European countries.
Yes, Sziraky is best known for his fish knife, but he produced a large number of knives in multiple local and “foreign" patterns. He himself completed his journeyman training abroad, which was a necessary requirement for one’s establishing his own, guild-approved independent cutlery business.
There are no written records regarding the origin of many Hungarian patterns, but the German/Solingen influence is well documented. The classic Solingen technology is still used today by Hungarian knife makers, and the terminology of the Hungarian cutlery craft is mostly of German origin.
There are no knives, fixed or folders, resembling the ‘fejes görbe’ pattern described prior to the 19th Century, neither in Hungary, nor in the Ottoman Empire which would suggest an Ottoman Turkish, or ancient Hungarian origin for this pattern.
On the other hand there are these 19th Century French patterns which are strikingly similar to the Hungarian pattern.

Southpaw357, I hope you don’t mind that I meandered away from your original topic, but “It’s French”, or at least French inspired - I think…
Forgot to tell you, your knife is beautiful! :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[southpaw357]

Thanks littleknife and no problem at all! Glad to be a conversation starter!


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[Jolipapa]

 

[screened porch]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, @ Jolipapa.

 

[waynorth]

"QUOTE="southpaw357"

"QUOTE"

Thanks for putting this wonderful knife in front of us, and for all those who added information!! A beautiful and intriguing bit of history, all told!! Glad the thread came back!!