It's OK to own 420hc.

I have to agree with Josh that it all boils down to the proper heat treat. Any steel that is not properly heat treated will not perform. For those of you bad mouthing 420HC, you obviously do not own any knives with this steel type or have just had a bad experience with an improperly heat treated knife. Buck's 420HC blades cut and hold an edge extremely well. I have a 110 with 420HC and it's still hair popping sharp after using it daily for over a month. Just because a specific steel type gets alot of press doesn't mean it's better than everything else. D-2 is a good example. It's been around for a long time and if it wasn't for Bob Dozier making it famous, it probably wouldn't even be considered a top steel. As far as the price of the Buck/Strider, it's a collabaration which means two companys are profiting from it's sale.
 
There are very few knives on this planet worth over a hundred bucks. I own every single one of them ;) 420HC by Buck&Bos is a reason I would pay that much, not a reason I wouldn't. Still, I'll wait 'til that knife is about half that price before it goes on the maybe list. Steel and Name snobs will never have the satisfaction I get when I whip out my $59 cocobolo Special, Yari, WhisperCT or Xplorer and get the work done. I make my living off of people that like to brag on names, that take pride in paying more than they could have. I laugh all the way to the bank.
 
Razorback - Knives said:
I have to agree with Josh that it all boils down to the proper heat treat. Any steel that is not properly heat treated will not perform. For those of you bad mouthing 420HC, you obviously do not own any knives with this steel type or have just had a bad experience with an improperly heat treated knife. Buck's 420HC blades cut and hold an edge extremely well. I have a 110 with 420HC and it's still hair popping sharp after using it daily for over a month. Just because a specific steel type gets alot of press doesn't mean it's better than everything else. D-2 is a good example. It's been around for a long time and if it wasn't for Bob Dozier making it famous, it probably wouldn't even be considered a top steel. As far as the price of the Buck/Strider, it's a collabaration which means two companys are profiting from it's sale.
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I agree that just because a steel does not get alot of press does not mean that it performs well. I will S7 as a example of this. I have been on shop talk trying to spread the word on this steel for a while, I think people will love it. Just because 420HC with a great heat treatment makes a fine knife steel it is a hard sell to everyone here that it is as good as something like S30V or BG-42 with a EQUALLY good heat treatment. You make it seem that if it was made of another steel that suddenly the H.T. would be crap. I do not think that anyone would balk at the steel used if it wasn't for the price. Mr. Rummerfield thank you for coming here and answering the questions that everyone has. I would like to take you up on the tour if I am ever out that way. I must say that I do not totally agree with you on the MSRP and pricing but it is great to have someone from the source come and to try to make sense of it all. Mark
 
420HC is one of the better stainless steels for rougher use knives as it is decently tough and ductile (for a stainless steel). I would prefer that in the above style of knife vs ATS-34, BG-42, etc. . Added wear resistance gains you nothing for those types of knives because the edge will not blunt by abrasion, and thus you just end up with lower machinability and lower toughness. The only real issue is does the steel get hard enough to withstand excessive impaction and rolling and Buck specs their 420HC at 58 HRC last I checked, which is just a couple of points lower than Strider used to run their ATS-34, so performance should be close in that regard.

Not that I would argue the knife is worth the price because as noted you can find a similar Buck model without the Strider name for about 1/4 the price, but the same of course could be said of the actual Striders, you can find the same steels in Buck knives with the same heat treatment, etc., and now the price change is far greater.

-Cliff
 
BlindedByTheLite said:
i'm surprised noone's brought up Benchmade's 440C Mini Griptillians... i don't think i've ever heard a bad thing about it.
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What does this have to do with a Buck/Strider fixed blade? :confused:
 
If you look at the price of steel in it's bar stock form the prices don't really vary that much per foot so the question should really be what really justifies the price variation on different brands or makers of knives. Why does a Strider knife that is simply a of steel and parachute cord cost $400.00 plus dollars? It the name that"s on the product that dictates it's price. Example Harley Davidson compared to a Kawasaki, look at there price difference. The name that's on a product is a big selling point.

Mark Nelson, people obviously don't care for 420HC no matter what's been done to it or this thread wouldn't be three pages. I'm not saying other steels are crap, I was making the point that they will not perform to there full potential without proper HT.
 
FWIW, the Buck/Strider Solution in ATS-34, a shorter and thinner knife, retails for $230, yet I doubt anyone paid that much for it. I got mine from the first run for $130. Let the market determine the street price.
J Rummerfield said:
Strider tested the 890's in a variety of steels. From S30V, BG42, ATS34 to 420 High Carbon. All the steels performed almost exactly the same when used by the operator for heavy field use. Strider beat the hell out of the 420 HC knives to make sure they were up to par, and they were.
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I'd give Strider the benefit of the doubt here. I respect the fact that they are giving their target audience exactly what they need at an affordable price without giving up much in performance. It's a smart compromise that will make both of them happy. Strider knows that their repuation is on the line but has the courage to cut through the hype and offer what works in their testing.

I'd also give Buck the benefit of the doubt on their pricing policy. Having been in the industry for so long, they know how to get it right. Buck is not going to cut costs by outsourcing these to be made overseas from a more 'premium' steel with an unknown heat treat and include a crappy sheath and weak-sauce warranty. Likewise, Buck dealers will be keen to price them appropriately below MSRP, otherwise they simply won't sell and it would be unprofitable to carry the 890 line at all.
 
Razorback - Knives said:
Mark Nelson, people obviously don't care for 420HC no matter what's been done to it or this thread wouldn't be three pages. I'm not saying other steels are crap, I was making the point that they will not perform to there full potential without proper HT.
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I agree with you 100%.
 
Danbo said:
What does this have to do with a Buck/Strider fixed blade? :confused:
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well, i thought the title of the thread was "it's okay to own 440C", and that was followed by many negative opinions of the steel... so i was presenting one of the most popular knives amongst Blade Forums members that utilizes that steel in order to support statements like the title of the thread, and that "it comes down to heat treatment"...

:)
 
Lots of difference between 440C and 420HC.

I'd like to go on record as admitting that my ideal steel for these knives would be 8A, which is still an old-news steel, but I think a better one. Nonetheless, I'll wait for someone to buy one and beat the hell out of it and see what is said. I still don't care for the guard design, but that's admittedly subjective.
 
BlindedByTheLite said:
ahhhh... 420HC not 420C... visual typo!
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That's because you were Blindedbythelite! ;) :D

Bwahahahahaha! I think I might have made a funny.
 
I think this steel snobbery is out of hand. Sure it may not be s30V or D2, but to call it "crap" is a bit of an overstatement. I had a Buck vanguard that held up just fine. Countless owners of 110s will attest to 420 hc. Sure it wont cut through your truck's roof or chop through a trash can, but buck's 420, particularly when heat treated properly, will do the job that most of us need.
I do agree that the MSRP is a bit high, but isnt that true of most knives?
 
I've said before and I'll say it again. The vast majority of us will never reach the full potential of 420hc in daily use. Yet we are ready to say it's worthless or overpriced. Do I prefer better steel? Yes, I would prefer it, but if the knife has the proper grind and the proper heat treat, I won't complain.

Also, don't forget this, we on the internet are a very small market of knife buyers. It is growing, but still not far from the dominate market.

To each his own. If you don't think it's worth it. Don't buy it. Pretty simple.
 
I agree with davmgt, the steel snobbery is out of hand. The "high-tech" steels peform only marginally better.

For me the issue here is that the same steel/heat treatment is available from Buck in a different model for a fraction of the price...most of us will just admire the cool looks of the knife and let someone else buy it!

I like to use better value knives such as the BK7. This new Buck costs $160...does it perform three times better than a the $50 BK7? :rolleyes:

Collecter
 
Perhaps if this knife were mostly to be used for chopping and prying the 420HC argument may hold up...

However how many of us really do chopping and prying with a medium sized knife day in day out? I doubt it, I would expect a knife like this to have good wear resistance as well... :confused:
 
i agree with Razorback - Knives. the 420hc is a great steel. i have an old 110with 420hc and i have an 880 with ats 34 the 110 takes and holds an edge far better then the 880. on the other hand the 880 scratches glass stab bricks and can steel most softer knives back to shaving sharp(yes i sharpen lesser knives on the back of my 880). now the 420hc might not get as hard as ats 34 will but i dont want a knife that big to be that hard(chop shock). and i would say that this knife is for chopping what els would you use it for? besides its 1/4 inch thick and 12 inches long. so em i wrong in thinking that getting any thing in that class heat treated by bos with a better steel is going to cost more then $150? when i first looked at this knife i figured its a good deal(and the most ive paid for a knife is $150 for the 880 off the strider table at a show)mabey im crazy but im geting a few.


....justin
 
averageguy said:
Isn't a correct heat treat the single most important element in a blade?
Doesn't that insure more than adequate performance for this steel - and this knife?
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You have to have good raw materials to heat treat. This is sort of a silk purse, sow's ear thing. 420HC is the "sow's ear" of knife steels.

I'm sure Bos gets everything there is to get out of the 420HC, but the "everything" isn't that much. Better steels have more potential and, if properly heat treated, will have better properties. Yes, poorly heat treated ATS-34, D2, etc. won't be as good as excellently heat treated 420HC but, properly heat treated they will far exceed it.
 
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