It's time for some action

Darth,

Well, the people that wish to ban things do not really care about reality at all. If they cared about reality and really saving lives, they would not have a revolving door policy when it comes to violent offenders to begin with. There would be extremely stiff penalties for murder, rape, robbery and violent criminal assaults. And there would be no Plea Bargaining them down to nothing.

But what I said, and what you followed up with, how can we sway AKTI to take a more Offensive Stance on Principle? The best Defense is a good Offense. As long as they are playing The Defensive Game, they will always be behind the curve.

People can speak of "compromise," but the only thing compromise does is ban things a decade later.

They are simply taking the Gun Control Playbook and laying it on knives like a transparency.

What has been called "bashing" could be considered constructive criticism.

But all of you have to go over to the AKTI Forum and make them change, Jim March and myself, and precious few others have been trying. But they are not going to budge until they see a push to do so.

As it stands right now, AKTI is an Organization devoted to Manufacturers and they are concerned with what effects Manufacturers and they are not concerned with Individual Rights or with even opening their eyes to the reality of the Liberal Incrementalism of Knife Control.
 
I've never seen so much irony packed into one word as 'liberal'.

I'm with Don on this one. Compromising with people like this is like sharing your personal space with a boa constrictor. Every time you give ground, they'll just squeeze you more.
 
As the discussion seems to be about the USA:

We live in a representative republic. Your voice is through those representatives, largely decided by votes, and furthered by activism. If you are not voting, talking with your representatives, and talking with other people then you are part of the problem.

Knife legislation will most certainly follow and mirror gun legislation. 100% guaranteed, no question about it. If you are so concerned with your knife rights, then you better start reviewing your waning gun rights whether you are a gun enthusiast or not.

It all comes down to weapons rights.

Whether you see a knife as a weapon or not, they do.
 
We live in a representative republic. Your voice is through those representatives, largely decided by votes, and furthered by activism.
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Exactly.

Our government is interesting in that representative frequently make laws about things they know nothing about.

Right now, there's considerable debate about something called "stem cell research." How many congressmen do you think know what a stem cell even is? And yet, somehow, they are expected to make laws about these things.

So, how do these representatives make decisions about esoteric technical issues like stem cells and exotic knives? Well, they listen to the people they represents and they also listen to experts who often take the form of lobbiest. And that's where an orgainization like AKTI comes in.

A large, respected organization, like AKTI, can sit down with legislators and explain issues to them and help them understand those technical issues.

There's an old saying, "the first step is to admit that you have a problem." I've found that the first mistake is usually never getting past the first step.

We've got a problem. We've admitted that. Fine.

Let's not now make the first mistake.

Now that we've admitted that we have the problem, let's stop whinning and complaining about it and start trying to solve it.

There's another old saying: "lead, follow, or get out of the way."

If you'd like to lead in solving this problem, great. If you want to follow, fine. But if you just want to whine and complain, then get out of the way.

You can say what you want to about AKTI, but the fact is that AKTI is out there, on the ground, working everyday. They are working for change and they are getting things done. They have made a positive difference. They have accomplished a lot more than will every be done by posting rants in this forum. And they are continuing that work today and everyday.

I don't have the expertize or resources to lead. I want to contribute to the solution, so I don't want to just get out of the way and sit on the sidelines whinning. As a result, I choose to follow.

Until some better alternative comes along, I'm gonna support AKTI and I'm gonna continue urging others to do so too.

It may not be ideal or perfect, but it is something positive and constructive. It's something real that I can do that will help make a measurable difference.
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
You can say what you want to about AKTI, but the fact is that AKTI is out there, on the ground, working everyday. They are working for change and they are getting things done. They have made a positive difference. They have accomplished a lot more than will every be done by posting rants in this forum. And they are continuing that work today and everyday.

I want to contribute to the solution, so I don't want to just get out of the way and sit on the sidelines whinning. As a result, I choose to follow.

Until some better alternative comes along, I'm gonna support AKTI and I'm gonna continue urging others to do so too.

It may not be ideal or perfect, but it is something positive and constructive. It's something real that I can do that will help make a measurable difference.
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I vehemently disagree. And this game of berating "whiners" who want change every bit as much as you do is demeaning and if you want to do that, that's fine Chuck, but it is also counterproductive.

AKTI eliminated the competition of the people who run AKTI, that's what they did in California.

You asked me a question this morning. I provided a lengthy answer as to an "alternative," that "alternative" being pressuring AKTI into taking a stance on Individual Rights instead of worrying about an immediate financial drain on their large contributors.

You're only comment in return is to speak of "rants" or "whining."

Interesting.

I will tell you one thing. If something is not done, if AKTI does not put Principle before Dollars, 15 years from now, most of this country will have all of their Switchblade Laws modified to include thumb studs, discs and holes.

And maybe even Oregon as well Chuck. Just remember, Oregon is friendly now, you can own Switchblade or Balisong. With the stroke of a pen, you could be a criminal overnight like thousands of Floridians now are over the Switchblade Debacle there. One Judge Chuck, one Judge to interpret the Ballistic Knife Law in such a way that a Switchblade became a Projectile Weapon.

You are confusing "ranting and whining" with passion Chuck. That makes me sad.

Leave it to AKTI, sure, we'll keep some knives the way they are going, for a few years.

They never stepped forward and said, "This is why this law is nonsense."

They stepped forward and said, "Our knives are different."

Time to wake up. Call it whining or ranting all you want. It's still the truth.
 
People often compare the AKTI to the NRA. But, it's not a valid comparison. The NRA is a very old organization with a huge membership base. It's money does not come primarily from large gun manufacturers but from individual members and from grants and endowments.

AKTI is only a few years old and its membership base is still quite small. I'm the 1240th member. (as I recall I'm 5300-something around here.)

One way to work for the changes you suggest in AKTI is to work to shift the membership and funding base. Join yourself and encourage other, similarly-minded individuals to join too.

Another way is simply to get involved with AKTI and work from within the organization as a positive force to help broaden the organization's view.

That is the sort of thing I mean by being positive and being constructive.

Right now, AKTI is out there doing positive things for knife owners. Maybe not exactly what you'd like. Maybe not everything you'd like. But, they are out there actively doing something, making a real difference, and being a real part of the solution.

I, for one, will support them in those efforts.
 
Chuck,

I did not compare AKTI to NRA in the manner you suggest. I said if the NRA was Founded and Controlled by a couple of American Gun Manufacturers who then jumped on the Saturday Night Special Bandwagon, and by doing so, eliminated their competition...I would have a problem with that.

I think if you check back, you will see that.

Originally posted by Chuck:
People often compare the AKTI to the NRA. But, it's not a valid comparison. The NRA is a very old organization with a huge membership base. It's money does not come primarily from large gun manufacturers but from individual members and from grants and endowments.
Click to expand...

You're really illustrating my point. The last sentence in this quote. AKTI is different and that is my point. They are not so much concerned with the Big Picture but with covering different issues that effect Manufacturers that contribute.

There was actually someone in that forum, I don't think they represented AKTI, but they had the testicles to say that unless you were a "Premium Member," whatever term they use, then you did not have a dog in the fight.

Now, who has a grand or so to throw at a Membership?

I would join if I was convinced that they would stop what they did in California, it is a road to ruin. And that is all I have really said.

Someone has to stand up and tell these paranoid maniacs in The Criminal Justice System that Balisongs, Switchblades and any other one handed opening knife, that they are not even a blip on the radar screen.

And, worst case scenario, what if they were? Why punish millions for the acts of a few Gang Members.

What can we do?

Well, if we cannot get AKTI to start defending US instead of Manufacturers, perhaps we need to look into creating a Private Organization geared towards Knife Collectors and Users.

This Organization should also welcome Gun Owners as Allies, and Martial Artists as well.

But everyone has to get along. The Gun Owner that says, "People who flip Balisongs are punks..." They have to flush out their headgear right along with the Knife People who support Gun Control.

Everyone has to band together to fight a common enemy and use facts, logic and common sense. All of those things are on our side.

Agreed?
 
I periodically right a representative or two about this problem and will of course continue to do this but I've never recieved anything back that would indicate that they may have read or even knew I had sent them a letter or email. Still, I think things will improve if we keep pestering them until they finally do listen. I think we need to come with an informational packet that demonstrates that Balisongs are not just pocket knives but are in fact one of the safest lock designs in a pocket knife. And also have it demonstrate throughly that they are not weapons but useful tools.

Anyway, I kinda got up on my soapbox again so I'll go write a couple o' congressmen.

Later
 
How can you "thoroughly demonstrate" they are not weapons and only tools when they are weapons and any attempt to hide from that is going to be suicidal. They'll laugh at us.

Weapons have to be legitimized. Tools have to be legitimized as well. Some weapons can double as tools, but make no mistake, anyone you tell that to can counter with a half a dozen books dedicated to the Balisong as a Fighting Implement.

I think what has to change in this country is Law Enforcement running the show with regard to weapons. They have a Batman Utility Belt full of weapons themselves and they have the power to use them above and beyond what an ordinary Citizen has. For example, they can brandish their weapon at the slightest hint of a threat, if you have a carry permit and you do that, you get arrested, you own no more firearms and you have no more permit.

The truth has to come out about knives and weapons in general. Weapon Vs. Tool is a side-issue. In Britain, you cannot carry a razor knife unless you have a note from Mum saying you use it for work, you can still be arrested and have to prove that to the satisfaction of the Judge.

So, in the long run, putting them in the "Tool" Category will not save us either. They'll ban tools if they want to as well.

If we try to hide or conceal, they will immediately seize on the dishonesty of the argument and ban them anyway.

A concerted effort has to be made on the part of Collectors, Users and Martial Artists, as well as Gun Owners, to protect everything.

How that is going to be accomplished with all the little Back Room Deals going on is beyond me.
 
Don, I'll give that to hide the fact that they are in fact weapons is crazy. Technically we should be able carry (keep and bear) weapons be they knives, guns, flame throwers, or salad forks. But I just don't see it happening. The second admendment was created to help the common man overthrow an injust government. Now while I REALLY don't think this is a good idea it is becoming an impossiblity. Just chaps my hide.
 
It does not really matter what you or I think though. The Bill of Rights is not a Buffet Table.

But seriously. I think we will reach the point where all folding knives that have "One Hand Capability" will be banned completely in several States, if not the whole country, if something is not done to stop it.

Hiding won't work and neither will compromising. Because a compromise sets a precedent.

That's my whole beef with AKTI. A knife can be "flicked open" and it does not matter if it has a, "Bias towards closure" or a ball and detent. The simple fact is, even through age and wear, almost without exception, any knife that is a "One Hand Knife" can be "flicked" open.

The Balisong is not a "flicker," it's a Unit that takes much more skill to open that quickly, but Law Enforcement and Politicians don't care about that reality. Or any reality for that matter. I fail to see how the snap of a Switchblade, snick of a dropping blade in a Gravity Knife, snap of an Inertia-Opened Folder or the clack of a Balisong can be anymore "menacing" than a guy producing or coming after you with a Butcher's Knife, Razor Knife or Icepick...it's simply not an issue with me. Because I'm not a bedwetter...they are. It's like saying a Pump Shotgun is more "menacing" because you can work the Pump and make a "RACK-RACK" sound, but forget about the guy with the Semi-Automatic Shotgun who makes no noise.

To any honest or sane Individual, the "menacing" aspect is the intent of the Weapon-Wielder.

So, now that AKTI has more or less agreed that there is a "problem with Flick Knives," that has set a precedent for the Banners to come back later and say, "Well, you agreed with us before that these are dangerous [whatever] and now, these knives do the same thing and you are defending them..."

That's not good. I hope they put this behind them and start getting some real Guidance because they said their Lobbyist told them they had to compromise, and the simple fact of the matter is, they don't. They can put forth better arguments instead of setting dangerous precedents.

AKTI is going to have to Assault the Forces that are Assaulting us. It's as simple as that. The Defensive Game is going to get us nowhere.
 
At this point, I don't see a problem making common cause with the NRA. We're both fighting for the same basic rights, aren't we?
 
If we could make the NRA our Ally in this fight, that would be excellent. As it stands now, they will sacrifice knives on the altar to keep liberals out of the gun cabinet.

If AKTI could reach them and speak with them, maybe an Alliance could be formed. I know Jim March received some help from the "Gun Side" for his fight.

I think Martial Artists need to get active in this fight as well. Because they have had Martial Arts Weapons in their sights since about 1984.

Out of all the kids I know who toted Nunchaku around in the early to mid-1980s, none of them were carrying store bought 'Chuks 'cept me. :D and even I made some with a drill, that's all I needed to make them. Excellent copies of rope chucks.
 
Don,
I think that logically everyone here can see the problem with weapons laws, and I think that for the long haul, you are right; we are all going to have to get together, but in the end it will make no difference. The NRA has such a bad name with everyone, except its members. When I tell people that I am a member, they react the way people used to when they found out people were communist. The American sheep are constantly bombarded with "bad gun" news stories. You NEVER EVER hear about the 2.5 million people who successfully defend themselves every year because they were carrying or had quick easy access to a gun. That's 2.5 million non-victims.

Look at Canada, (I would like some help from you Canadians on this) not long ago; I believe they decided to have every hunter register their hunting weapons as well. Now if you don't tell their government about the 12 gauge your grandfather gave you, YOU are the criminal. In other European countries you can't even own pepper spray for Gods sake.


In the end, the best we will be able to do is hold them off long enough for our grandchildren to enjoy some piece of the Old American way of life.

You remember? Back when people were responsible for their own actions? And when they did wrong they were punished for it.
 
Random: I'd like to help you out, but I'm pretty ignorant of just quite what happens in regards to guns in Canada. What I do know is that the pattern is a disturbing one.

I will say, however, that it seems to me that the more restrictive weapons laws are in Canada, the more violent crimes are becoming, the more innocent people end up dead. While I'm sure there are other factors contributing to this as well, it is still a very interesting pattern.

Also, we don't have any RKBA type clause in any constitutional law. Heck, we don't even have a constitution we could point to for help. All Canadian constitutional law boils down to, as far as guaranteed rights go, is "peace, order, and good government," and if those "rights" are violated, then the Queen sweeps in and takes over.
(Personally, I've been expecting Her Majesty since about 1988!)
 
Don't take this the wrong way, I tell Brits this and some of them get their nose out of joint.

In Canada (and Great Britain), you're not a Citizen, you're a Subject, and as such, a smartassed play on words or a reality that is tangible, you are "subject" to just about anything the Government wishes to hurl at you.

Don't feel bad about not having Civil Rights spelled out for you...we have a Second Amendment that if you actually read the words of the Founders of the country in the same time frame the Amendment was passed, it was clear what their intent was. That the Individual has a Civil and Human Right, and in some cases, A DUTY, to be armed and skilled with those arms.

And we STILL have lying sonsabitches arguing about where the COMMA is in the Second Amendment and just precisely what that MIGHT mean.
 
Don: Indeed, indeed. Outside the "POGG" clause, Canadian "constitutional" law is all about the "rights" (& responsibilities) of the government. Aargh. If it weren't for job, family, & friends all being here, I'd have taken advantage of my dual citizenship three years ago.
 
Here, here Don. the second amendment was written so that the PEOPLE could maintain a militia (of course we all know how quickly the ATF and FBI act against anti-governmental militias) so that we could overthrow the government should the need arise. I'd have to say that George Washington and Ben Franklin were around right now they would be outraged.
 
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