It's too heavy.....

D

DOC-CANADA

Joined
Apr 14, 2006
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I don't want to hijack anybody's PSK thread, so I started this one. Here's my thought. We see a wealth of threads on PSK'S, mine included. Some get pretty large, so, as per Myakka's tag line, "The more you know, the less you need.", I thought it would be interesting to take somebody's PSK (not mine, because it would serve this purpose to use one of a larger size) and examine it item for item, and discuss substitutes that can be found in nature.

For example, people carry sewing needles. These can be readily substituted with Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.) thorns. Instead of trying to make an 'eye' in them, you split them upwards from the wider base, about 1/3 to 1/2 the way. To 'thread' the 'needle' you open the split and insert the fibre. When you push the needle (thorn) through the material, you squeeze the wider base together and this holds the fibre in place. This type of needle actually has some advantages over a conventional needle in that it's easier to thread for 61 year old eyes :( and it's easier to thread when you're using rougher (natural) fibres for a thread. It's also readily available in many parts of the country, it's free and you don't have to carry it.

So, anyway, that's my idea. What do you think?

Doc
 
How about eliminating everything except:
1) Gerber folding knife
2) NATO style water bottle
3) firesteel and striker
4) camera crew (preferably blond, swedish, and female)
 
Of course this can be taken too far. You can also start with nothing and make a flint knife and with that flint knife you can make...
 
everyones threads here got me to whittle my kit down to an altoids tin a small stainless pill case, a mylar blanket and 10 ft of paracord it is all rangerbanded together and easily fits in a jacket or cargo pants pocket.
 
Doc,

I see what you are saying, but when I look at what I am going to carry in the PSK I do a weight-to-utility analysis, meaning I decide whether the item I am carrying is worth the weight. Using the example you provided, the light weight of sewing needles serve their utility very well. I think their light presence in the PSK outweighs the effort I would have to expend to find a suitable thorn as a substitute.

As another extreme example, I could drop the lighter, fire steel, and matches and instead look for flint in the field to start a fire; that would make my kit weigh less, but I think the weight-to-utility ratio of those items is very high and definitely not worth the effort to substitute for scrounging around for flint.

I could go on (I could drop the metal cup because I could make a clay pot instead), but you get the idea.
 
Doc,
I like the idea, it sound like fun. I like knives and gear. I am getting a pretty big collection of knives :D, but I really love to studing different techquines and primitive ways to be perpared. It is great if you get lost in the wild with your survival kit and gear to aid you, but if by any chance you didnt have your gear with you, could you survive with out it?
 
One thing I try to factor into the items in my PSK is the amount of time a particular item will save me over the time a corresponding primitive technique will take to be effective. Mac
 
I'm not saying this is the smartest way to go... but my PSK consists of a hip pouch, flint and steel(my knife), some tinfoil(for cooking containers and making char), some tinder(char, resinous pine and tinder fungus). Almost everything else I need is provided by the bush. This config has worked for me going on 17yrs now, with a couple sketchy situations included. Here is a pic of the pouch and contents. All home-made.
Rick
firekit2.jpg

firekit1.jpg
 
I've learned that if it's too big, I won't carry it on me. Because of this, my PSK has been boiled down to this:
PB080016.jpg


The small keychain of goodies (Mg firestarter, whistle, ceramic rod, LED) is packed into the little black sheath below it, and resides on my belt. I also keep the Opinel, some cordage (usually jute twine), and a small first aid kit in my pockets. Anything more than these items, and I start to not carry it.

If I am just hiking or am away from camp, I would have this on me however:
Knifekitandpot011.jpg


The items in this pouch have changed a bit recently, though. Now there is:

Platypus bag (2L)
LM Wave
Twine
Paracord
Duct tape
Chlorine tabs
Bandana
Flashlight
Fatwood
Bic
1st Aid Kit
Compass
Poncho

A kit like this is more in line with a traditional Emergency kit, but it's just too bulky to have on my waist when my pack is also on. If I was away from my pack however, I would sling that pouch over my shoulder.
 
In my PSK, Doug Ritter has helped me out a lot...
Flint is necessary if you cannot find another fire starting method... It usually works in all weather situations and does not fail... Maybe a waterproof lighter and windproof as well?
Staying alone the fire trail I normally find most of my wood in the outdoors, but when it is wet I would carry some, not a lot of wood to help start a fire..

Parachute cords and a cut up part of a parachute I have used for a make-shift shelter several times..

I also have some line for fishing when I am near water, but that decision can be made by looking at a map..

A small first aid kit and a compass round out my kit.. Also with my trusty Wave and a Gerber Gator.
 
Midnight Scout said:
Doc,

I see what you are saying, but when I look at what I am going to carry in the PSK I do a weight-to-utility analysis, meaning I decide whether the item I am carrying is worth the weight. Using the example you provided, the light weight of sewing needles serve their utility very well. I think their light presence in the PSK outweighs the effort I would have to expend to find a suitable thorn as a substitute.

As another extreme example, I could drop the lighter, fire steel, and matches and instead look for flint in the field to start a fire; that would make my kit weigh less, but I think the weight-to-utility ratio of those items is very high and definitely not worth the effort to substitute for scrounging around for flint.

I could go on (I could drop the metal cup because I could make a clay pot instead), but you get the idea.
Click to expand...

Hey Midnight Scout,

I don't disagree with your post, however, the point isn't to eliminate a PSK, but rather to examine possible substitutes in case a particular PSK item was lost, damaged, whatever. Also, in doing the exercise, it opens your mind to other possibilities.

I repeat, I'm not suggesting eliminating your PSK, but it's nice to have options.

Magnussen - nice kit.

pict: One thing I try to factor into the items in my PSK is the amount of time a particular item will save me over the time a corresponding primitive technique will take to be effective. Mac
Click to expand...

Agreed, and your physical condition at that moment might be such that a corresponding primitive technique would not be possible.

Jos: Of course this can be taken too far. You can also start with nothing and make a flint knife and with that flint knife you can make...
Click to expand...

No, it can't, at least not in my opinion. How can it be taken too far? All I'm suggesting is expanding your knowledge base, giving you options, not, to leave your PSK at home on your next outing.

LittleHairyApe: How about eliminating everything except:
Click to expand...

Maybe this addresses my point more effectively. I'm not suggesting eliminating anything, but rather adding alternatives.

Myakka: :thumbup:



Anyway it was just a thought. Thanks for your input.

Doc
 
Duct tape is always a must to carry in a PSK. It can be used for several things.
 
My minimal kit is my EDC, one Adventurer lock-blade SAK and one Bic lighter. Since my heart attack I have added my small bottle of nitroglycerin tabs. I was hoping that those would work as really cool fire starters, but they don't really burn well.
 
The Altiods tin in my Becker pouch is fairly simple.

Bottom lined with Moleskin to treat blisters

Starflash signal mirror

Small flat compass - on braided neck cord of #4 waxed line
Inova LED light - On same cord as above

Sparklite sparker w/ 4 tinders
2 short tubes filled with PJ treated cotton
6 Waterproof strike anywhere matches

Potassium permanganate in flat foil
Salt packets

Heavy needle wrapped with #4 waxed line

Single edge razor
sterile Scalpel blade

The Becker sheath has a few other items attached below the pouch

Space blanket wrapped with duct tape
5 liter waterbag
ACR whistle
Brass wire
3 birthday candles
"Zebu" folding knife - Inserted between altiods tin and pouch
Flat of 30 chlorine tablets
3 meters of paracord
Jigsaw blade sharpened as a fishing spear

The handle of the Becker contains a fishing kit

Of these items I don´t really know what I would want to eliminate and substitute for a primitive technique. Cordage I can make and the bush here abounds with ready made needles. The space blanket is for use in a primitive shelter either as a blanket or roofing.

I´m big on signals, I don´t like the idea of using the lid as a mirror as in my area a signal mirror is extremely useful so I want a real one. I can whistle really loud with my fingers so the ACR whistle is redundant. The LED light takes up so little space/weight and is so useful as a signal or for extending my time envelope that I view it as essential.

The compass can be worked around to celestial navigation techniques but it is very compact and light weight so why not carry it?

Salt helps me treat heat cramps that might hinder my mobility
Moleskin treats blisters that might hinder my mobility
KMNO4 can be used as a wound wash, anti-fungal, or water treatment, all mobility related.

I look at it this way "The more you know the less you have to carry" is a good philosophy. This has reduced my emergency gear to the above kit that fits on my knife. I know that if I have my knife strapped to my body that it will be very hard for me to be reduced to using primitive techniques that depend upon my health and the ability to roam the countryside gathering the correct materials.

I view bushcraft and wilderness emergency prep as two complimentary and distinct disciplines. My PSK is set up to help me handle a personal emergency. I work on the primitive stuff all the time in the bush, but I wouldn´t want to depend upon it in the event of a serious injury.

About the most dangerous thing I face out there is a broken leg that would prevent me from leaving, getting to water, building shelter,etc. Under those circumstances I wouldn't want to have left something out. Mac
 
Doc-

interesting idea, fun and useful. I try to make as much of my FSK (I have kids. no such thing as a PSK with a 9 month old and a 4 year old) from scratch as plausible, though I do carry needles because of the other thing-

I don't have a FSK or PSK that's taped up banded together or whatnot. I have stuff I use, maybe once a week, maybe every day. I have an insane need to 'do stuff' so this isn't generally a problem. I always need first aid gear, often enough need shelter or weather materials, always need knives and multi tools, needles and razors, fire and water, etc.

I love the artistry and function of some of the primitive skills, and I get a lot of use out of them on jobsites or when "doing stuff", but I also have some areas where I can't see a half gram really costing me much. (and good thorns are hard to find here)
 
I think it makes sense to whittle down weight on a PSK, but it depends on the functions it serves. If it is a Pocket SK, yep, needs to be tiny. If it is a personal SK, it depends on what you are doing with it. My kit goes out often, and I don't change anything in it no matter where I am going. I use the saw, water bottle, pjballs, etc. I could go with less, but there would be a huge loss in utility. Slightly off topic, I think that some kits could actually be getting too specialized. My kit has definite uses for most all activities I am involved in, and tools that are actually useful in normal situations. This means that I will always have the kit.

Most PSKs don't have binocs, but mine does because I use them. If the kit did not have useful tools, I would have to remember to take it with me.

I look at each item and ask "If I really needed a tool, would I want this to be the one?" If I have to make a shelter, or cut down enough wood for a good sized fire, do I really want an SAK? Or do I want a Bahco saw or machete. If I need a fire in wet, nasty, inclement weather, do I want only a firesteel or REI matches and triox bars?

On the original post, if I had to pare down severely, I would take a Mora, Machete, some spiderwire, a large firesteel, and hopefully a plastic bag or tarp.
 
It's good to know about using thorns as needles, but steel needles are the lightest thing in my kit. All you need is a couple. I'd look to other items to reduce weight. It is good to question the function and need of every item.
 
DOC-CANADA said:
For example, people carry sewing needles. These can be readily substituted with Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.) thorns. Instead of trying to make an 'eye' in them, you split them upwards from the wider base, about 1/3 to 1/2 the way. To 'thread' the 'needle' you open the split and insert the fibre. When you push the needle (thorn) through the material, you squeeze the wider base together and this holds the fibre in place. This type of needle actually has some advantages over a conventional needle in that it's easier to thread for 61 year old eyes :( and it's easier to thread when you're using rougher (natural) fibres for a thread. It's also readily available in many parts of the country, it's free and you don't have to carry it.



Doc
Click to expand...

If you're in the southwest the agave plant can give you loads of razorsharp needles without threading. Once you break off the tip you can peel it back and have some strong threads with the needle attached.
 
I agree that learning how to make do without or with a smaller PSK is useful. However, it is less efficient. Time and energy management are critical. I also think that the assumption that you have both hands, are fully mobile, and aren't either half concussed or hypothermic goes into making choices for a less efficient, more minimalistic kit preached from the "more you know the less you need" pulpit. I'm not saying they are wrong, I agree with the statement when taken in its pure form. But too many people turn "need" into "want", or worse, into a macho contest to see who can survive on the least amount of kit.

Do I need my PSK? No. I can substitute for most of it if I need to, it just takes a lot more time and energy. I also do not need to survive- the student loan people will swear a lot becuase they won't be getting their money back, some other people will mourn and move on, and the world will still be going and society will still be doing everything it needs to do to survive as a culture. Neolithic peoples survived to. As cultures. Based off those that survived to recent history, they often considered anyone over the age of 25 or 30 to be "tribal elders" as well. That tells me that they didn't survive so well as individuals.

Nature is a stubborn old bat. The "will to survive" is critical, but if it turns into a contest of wills, she'll win. So you stack the deck. You mark it. You put a mirror behind her chair so you can see her hand. And if the going gets rough, you pull out your own deck for the next hand.
 
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