I've now handled a Busse, IWA show Germany

G

GREENJACKET

Joined
Feb 23, 2000
Messages
1,363
The IWA, Nuremberg, is Europe's Trade Shot Show. The whole range of Busse knives were there with the Busse Combat Deutschland team. Great guys and rightly enthusiastic about their product. The stand looked the part too. Nothing new to report
frown.gif
just the main lines.

This is the first time I've handled any Busse knife, let alone the most recent production. Only real problem there was nothing that I could carve up.
The BM has always been the one I fancied. It is a brute of a knife. Slab solid with beef. I can see where nuclear tough comes from as there is nothing little to this knife. The edge design looks as if it would work, as it was well sharp enough. I like the concept. The handle was on the big side for me, but then I do have smaller hands than most. This knife lends itself to power chopping, but I can't see it out performing a medium sized hatchet nor challenge a machette. Kukri style combat but not a nimble fighter. Fit and finish was fine without finesse.

For a combat blade I see the merit and some soldiers will love it. I found it too much, but then I'm old fashioned. Good choice if you were mechanised, but I like something lighter for tabbing.

Certainly if you could have only one survival tool the BM would be at the top end of my list. However, given more flexability, then I would go another route.

The Busse line of knives has its place and are a real solution. If it suits your style then I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Definitely a top league product. Would I buy one? Probably not my next knife (different specks/job description), but quite likely because I'd love to give one a real beasting in the woods.

Just my point of view.


 
What!

You mean you missed those lovely 8 prototypes of the new german (european) line?
Sorry to hear that.
If you see the pictures you will probably slap yourself for making the trip and missing those cool knives.

Dirk

------------------
Dirk Linnemeyer

Busse Combat Germany
 
Shindendojo.
Those with the larger coils? Ooops! There, I told you I was a Busse first timer.

You had better answer the rave you are going to start.
 
Yes! Speak up.
biggrin.gif


------------------
"KEEP IT SIMPLE"

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"
 
So, if it is o.k., can you show us pics of the Euro line??

Those of us without minds want to know....



------------------
The art of being wise is knowing what to overlook.
Take the Test...
 
GREENJACKET:

The comments that follow refer to the old style BM which I have used :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> This knife lends itself to power chopping, but I can't see it out performing a medium sized hatchet nor challenge a machette.</font>
Click to expand...

A good quality hatchet like the Gransfors Bruks will outperform the BM on decent sized wood (say 4x4 and up). However there are durability concerns, because most hatchets have thick primary grinds, in order to get decent penetration they have very acute edge bevels, this lowers their overall durability. If you increase the edge thickness to raise the durability then the penetration falls off very quickly.

Now you could make a hatchet with a primary and secondary grind similar to that of a BM, but I have yet to see one. If you did, this blade would readily outperform the BM on all types of wood and suffer no durability concerns. Of course such a hatchet is only suited to smaller work, if you put such a grind on a larger axe then all you would make is a one shot chopping machine that would get so badly lodged into the wood you would need another axe to cut it out.

In regards to machetes, if you are willing to put in the time to reshape the edge that they come with you can get a very strong performer for chopping on soft woods and/or light vegetation in general. However, many are simply not suited for working on hardwoods as they can break apart, and even if they do stay together they will bind so readily due to the parallel sides that you have to chop very lightly with them and thus the performance goes down the toilet.

Now there are pseudo-machetes out there like the RCM from Newt Livesay. With 3/16" stock you should not have any durability concerns and you get a great reduction in binding as well as a great increase in penetration. As to what gives you the best performance (1/8", 3/16", 1/4"). It depends on the type of wood and how you are chopping.

The softer the wood, the thinner the better, the faster you swing the thinner the better, however if you drive with a lot of power but low speed you want a heavier blade, and if you are chopping in harder, knotty wood you want a heavier blade. Of course the BM is not the ultimate profile for that, a 1/4" blade with a full convex grind would be better for the extreme end, as well as even thicker as you go to harder wood with heavier chopping methods, which leads to the khukuris.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I had to get my head around this one. Firstly, I do like the BM, though I like even better the limited edition Bolo with its reverse curve cutting edge (10 inch plus would have been even better.)

I do have a problem with the size and weight of the Busse line for the modern battlefield soldier. Frankly, I would go for a much smaller lighter blade. Better quality but on the lines of a Kar Bar or Frost. The knife being a personal tool. Then compliment it with team tools that are more theatre specific such as axes, machetes, pick axes and digging tools. Team tools are more efficient at the task and cause less fatigue.

I find that all too often, too much emphasis is placed on the idividual as an entity. The smallest meaningful unit in an army is a four man team. The pure weight of equipment that a modern soldier is expected to carry just does not allow for the luxuary of weighty personal items but does cater for better team items. Main stream front line infantry have huge support such as Combat engineers or sappers who have the kit. Manoeuver warfare is fluid not static. I think Combat Busse is too much as a forces personal knife. This is my opinion as I know there are those who would love it and could haul it. However, if I was the boss and a soldier couldn't hack the pace, I'd have him chuck it. (I was in an army where a pistol just wasn't firepower weight efficient.) If you are mechanised, who cares.

Now that I'm on civi street and don't have to be a military mule, then I'd love the Busse to go into the unknown with. But then I'm going as an idividual not as a team player and I'd be in my own time.

If you had to cut a log pile you would want an axe or chainsaw. If you wanted to slash a path through a jungle, hour after hour, you would want a mechete. Axe $60, machete $30. If you wanted to play Robinson Crusoe and you could only have one knife you would have a Busse BM.

This is for debate so go for it.
 
Strong points, GJ.

I think most of us here (perhaps including you, now that you're a civie), love Busses simply because they are the ULTIMATE in knives, and we here all have a curious fascination and highest regard for the ULTIMATE in anything.

Your point is well taken (with me, at least), that the average foot soldier simply cannot afford to carry any extra ounces beyond what is absolutely mission critical--he has too much weight to carry as it is. Maybe there would be a niche for a 3/16" thick Basic #5, perhaps with serrations. Thinner is not blasphemy as long as it's INFI. What do you think?
 
Thanks X-Head, its nice to know I'm not pissing in the wind.

Thinking back to my soldiering days, I tried to work out just how many times a day I actually used my knives. I carried three: SAK Huntsman in my pocket, Blackjack folding Manba on my stable belt, and a CR Project on my webbing order. Frankly this was posibly overkill.
When the number of times just did not add up, I tried to work out how much use they got over a month or so. Then I added some perceived, "just in case", tasks. Finally, I threw in two mortar rounds and four hundred link a came to the conclusion: "What the heck its only sweat and blood, you unfit fat btd".

What I'm trying to point out is that its all to easy to convince yourself: "that the best, I'll have a bit of that; errr I'm might need that, just in case" and end up with the perverbial kitchen sink. Two months later that piece of Gucci kit, that you couldn't live without, will be rotting at the bottom of your locker, redundant.

So Jerry, give us a "Para" Busse, that is lighter weight and a finer utility knife.
 
Many good points have been made. However, there are never any “blanket” rules when it comes to the type or size of equipment that will be needed by ALL military personnel. If there were just one “hard and fast” rule, we would only have to make one model. For example, the soldier who’s out in the field and engaged in aggressive actions against enemy personnel could find himself in need of several different types or styles of bladeware. Moreover, someone working in a supply position or as a behind-the-lines radio operator would most certainly have different needs. I certainly believe that they all need knives, but it would be difficult to argue that any one design could satisfy all of them.

With that in mind let me respond directly to your call for a lighter, easier to carry, high performance knife . . . . . I AGREE! We track demand trends and listen to feedback. I can assure you that you are not alone. The new models referred to in previous posts on this forum will be coming soon and should satisfy the very concerns and requests made thus far. Great points have been made here. . . . . . Keep up the good work my friends.

Yours in nuclear feedback,

Jerry Busse
 
I think it is obvious that for most tasks you can find a tool which does that job better than a large blade like the Battle Mistress simply because it is not as focused and therefore has to make compromises so as to be able to do a broad range of tasks well rather than a very narrow range of taks very well.

What you say about teams makes perfect sense. If you know that you are going to be working in a group then the best choice is obviously going to be very specialized tools. This is not just restricted to military use. If I am doing something with friends then we spread out the tools taking a large selection of optomized gear.

The reason I have a Battle Mistress is simply because I don't normally travel in a pack and thus I don't have the desire to carry the kind of gear that could be easily handled by such a group. A decent large knife like the Battle Mistress will handle a wide enough range of tasks at a very good level of functionality so I am rarely wanting for a machete / axe / swede saw / light utility knife / pry bar / digging tool, etc. .

Of course is depends on what I will need to do. There are times that I would want each of the above very strongly, of course I usually know that before hand and take one of them along. I rarely want all of them at the same time.

As for a smaller lighter knife, there are a number of small models from Busse Combat. If you want a knife that is more focused on just cutting then get a Deerhunter from A. G. Russell. That will outcut all the Busse line, of course it is no where near as strong nor durable. Step up the small Busse Models if you want more strength and durability.

-Cliff
 
Thanks, Jerry and Cliff for your feedback.

One point to note is that the "Para" knife needs to keep some length, 7 inches or so. The Kar Bar was an example because still had that bit of reach/length for those probing jobs that need to be done.

Sorry if I got carried away but my pet hate was the British issue MOD survival knife which was a real heavy metal thug of a knife.

I'll be looking forward to seeing what comes out of the mill next
smile.gif


[This message has been edited by GREENJACKET (edited 03-21-2001).]
 
Speaking of that blade, there is an article on that very knife in the July 1994 issue of "Fighting Knives" by Sean McWilliams. It is compared to another knife (made by McWilliams). The MOD knife is easily outperfomed and the author uses this to make some very faulty conclusions, for example if your blade doesn't have a full distal taper nor a tapered tang it is 66% scrap metal (the Battle Mistress is such an example).

The main problem is ignoring the huge difference in the primary and secondary grinds, and sharpness of both blades, however some of the "science" used is rather problematic. For example, carrying the MOD knife would increase the amount of calories burnt by 1000 per hour on a hike. Put a ten point weight in your sack and burn 10 000 calories in a hour, no not really.

One of the problems with a thinner Busse blade is that of course the strength rapidly falls as you decrease the stock thickness. At 3/16" any heavy prying could snap a 7" blade without that much effort. However the increase in flexibility would be a decent warning signal, if you have your blade past 60 degrees then it is probably time to look for a stiffer pry bar.

I would personally like a longer thinner Busse as well, the blade you described in the above, bolo with a 10+" length in 3/16" stock would be nice to work with.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
The issue MOD was half as bad in its earlier forms being made from a thick but thinner stock than the later ones. Some of the boys had REME grind them down so they could at least cut. Not a spanner in the works but more one for the tracks as I'm sur they were built to stop the Soviet Block's tanks. What really anoyed me was they couldn't even cut.

I ought to join the Busse club if I want to carry on "commentating". I think it will be the Limited edition bolo. Though, handle egernomics are not quite right for my smallish hands.

Shame that the limited edition didn't go the whole hog. A 10 inch plus bolo might have given me that hard wood machete that I've always wanted. Now that would test Inf steel!
 
Green Jacket,

Fear not! We have plenty of steel. We'll make you whatever you need.

Yours in nuclear customs,

Jerry Busse
 
Greenjacket, I for one (and I doubt I am alone) appreciate your comments. It is of no use to have a forum that consists simply of excessively positive comments. I would assume that while this would be great for Jerry's ego in the short term, in the long run it is much more beneficial to recive comments that are actually based in reality. It is impossible for any knife, no matter how well made to please everyone. And you can generally learn much more from the people that disagree with you than those who reinforce everything you say. The latter is not of much more benefit that talking to yourself and has much the same effect if it is kept up for any length of time.

A longer INFI bolo would be an excellent blade for hardwood limbing. I think that at 1/4" thick might be a bit excessive especially since there is no distal taper. With say a 16" blade you are going to be carrying a lot of weight and the balance point is going to be shifted way out in front. Then again, I know of blades that are made in that manner. Parangs for example are commonly made about 1/4" with no taper and can be 24"+ in length. I can't imagine swinging that for any length of time, but it obviously can be done.

-Cliff
 
Hey! Wait a minute! Now let's talk about that suggestion of everyone saying nothing but positive, ego building comments. . . I kinda like that idea. . .

Of course I do take great pride in the fact, and I have posted this on another forum, that Busse fans are made up of free-thinkers and individualists. We don't bully our people and friends when they disagree with us. We also don't privately contact our forum members and tell them to post on our behalf when it hits the fan either here or on another forum. Don't get me wrong, I can assure you that there is no one who appreciates it more than we do, it's just that we don't expect it and we will certainly not ask for it.

I, likewise, don't take it personally when someone comes out and says they don't care for one of our knives or our sheaths or whatever they're not into about our line. I try not to let my personal ego get too carried away or blown out of proportion, which is difficult considering that I have to deal with my incredible athletic ability and dashing good looks on a daily basis. I understand that it is our customer's love of Busse Knives and not me personally, that keeps 'em coming back. . . Why, if it were me, they would send more Middleton Gold and Milds and a couple of bottles of Echo Springs Kentucky Bourbon. . . In fact, if our customers just wanted to be neighborly, they could send those items to:

Jerry Busse
c/o Busse Combat Knife Co.
11651 Co. Rd. 12
Wauseon, OH 43567

But, sadly, they don't. You know, I think we should try and re-think this "only say gushy words of love about our knives" thing. If not that, then let's at least reconsider the Echo Springs issue.

Yours in nuclear thirst,

Jerry Busse

 
Jerry, if you were to build that Busse hardwood machete then with the flat of the blade you could pat yourself on the back any time you wanted <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> Just don't do it after eighteen pints and a half dozen chasers <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0">

Cliff, I agree, I do like some taper to a blade especially on small slim lighter blades. Busse, in my mind, are on the tank amoured side of the fence. This is a huge part of their market niche, so I wouldn't want to be overly righteous here as I know I am a bit of a slime classical snob. What would be your ideal Busse "whoppa choppa"? Mine would be on the lines of the now defunct Blackjack Marauder II, a fifteen inch bolo. Weight is an issue if you intend the blade to be usefull on lesser/finer tasks. The forces generated are going to be huge, and Inf steel will be tested. Nothing I know of yet can brush off all damage at this level. (That is why I had asked about grinders/belts in another post, and it looks like I will have to invest in a belt sander now.) There is probably two knives to be made here: the true light weight machete and a hard wood clever, as I cannot see both being achieved in one blade. One to build a jungle hut the other a log cabin.

Money where your mouth is. At the end of the day you have to give a blade a work out to see where its coming from; which means you have to buy one. I don't expect knife makers to be a charity. If its knives, that are one of your hobbies, then purchasing is the cost of it. However, I have a few too many knives that just didn't live up to the hype or my expectations. I've a few things to sort out at home first, but then one poor Busse is going to get a right kicking. Doubly so, now that my bloods up <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top