Ivory..

D

Dr Heelhook

Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
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I was just curious, what is it about ivory that makes it so attractive as a knife handle material? I've never actually held an ivory handled knife, but I guess there must be something that makes people prefer this material to others, the way they do. I can imagine that a lot of people want it mostly because it's exotic and expensive and has high status in general, but what actual practical advantages is there in a knife handle made out of ivory compared to other materials?

Let's say we compare elephant ivory, mammoth ivory, stag and say a nice linen micarta.

How do they actually differ in terms of durability, grippyness, beauty, how they are affected by the elements etc.?
 
True Ivory:

It is a warm, subtle and beautiful material. I have handled a few knives as well as the raw material. It is coveted because there is nothing like it. I doubt it has any practical advantage over linen micartas, except to scrimshanders.

I like it a lot, but I probably will never own any. The only way I would consider using it would be if it carried a provenance of full legality, as well as some sort of proof that it was taken in a necessary, humane manner, or taken from a deceased animal. If it could be sold to fund keeping the existing herds healthy, and expanding their range, so much the better.
 
It is largely the beauty of ivory. It is obvious to the eye, and no synthetic can perfectly match it's color variations, or grain. Also the status of it. It has been valuable throughout time for it's beauty. As far as strength, it is no match for synthetic imitaters such as micarta, and some of the polymers, but there just is no substitute that equals it's natural beauty.
 
Knives have been handled in elephant ivory for many hundreds of years.
It is a beautiful material and has a feel like no other. With that said, I use very little.

Fossil ivory, both mammoth and walrus are my favorite ivories.
It is also a beautiful material but with the history of being in the ground for
thousands of years and the variety of colors, makes it the most interesting.

When treated right, ivory can be very durable a long lasting but micarta is king
for a hard use knife. Basically for it's durability but just as important, it's low cost.
 
I have a walrus tusk that a dear friend gave me before he died. He said he got it from an Alaskan Eskimo Chief as a gift while he was in the army. I can't bring myself to cut into it its too pretty. And I don't know how legal it is. Mamoth ivory is just too expensive for my skill level knives IMO so I haven't used any of it. But I can say that the tusk I have is just flatly gorgeous.
 
It's one option of a truely unique and beautiful natural material. If someone prefers it there are no good substitutes. It's simple to aquire legal ivory, and while poaching is a criminal activity, many areas have to cull elephant.
 
I don't use elephant ivory. I did do a couple of knives with some small pieces I had aquired in a trade. I perfer walrus. As stated by others its eye pleaseing beauty is not matched by any man made material. this may sound weird but to me it is actually warm in the hand. My edc is a damascus 3" drop point with a walrus ivory handle. Ivory also has a strange property that when used on a hunting knife,should the handle become wet or bloody it will actually seem to have a better grip,almost sticky.Even in apolished state.
 
I personally have not seen allot of elephant ivory. I have seen allot of mammoth ivory.
I think its safe to say that here in the states mammoth is prefered over elephant.

Here is a question for you. If I was to offer you a handfull of gold or a handfull of brass what would you take? How about if you had to choose between plywood and real wood?

To put it as simply as posible; "there aint nothing like the real thing baby"

Micarta and the other synthetics are hands down the best when it comes to hard use BUT If all I had to choose from was a few colors of micarta and nothing else I would stop making knives.

It would be a sad world if instead of ebony and ivory it was plastic and plastic.
Or if instead of "what are you drinking?" it was "heres your vodka comrad."

Truth be told though I prefer wood or antler.

Also Dr heelhook maybe you should go over to the Customs sub forum on this site and ask the collectors what they think.
 
I for one don't understand the issue with ivory. Here in America our game animals are constantly thinned by hunters. It keeps predator and game numbers in appropriate ranges. This is now necessary due to humans killing off or reducing, in the early days, several of the top predators and the encroachment of humans upon habitats. This seems horrible now but probably was much more palatable when people lived in the woods with these predators. The money generated by hunting and fishing fuels not only our fish and wildlife departments but the money organizations like ducks unlimited produce to buy breading grounds have led to preservation of these species while liberals sit in the city and whine about ecology.

I have several friends who go on Safari and it is something that the average person seems to have no handle on. First and foremost Elephants are not in trouble everywhere. There are areas where elephants not only thrive but cause there own species many problems during years where there numbers boom. Unlike America the game departments in Africa rarely get any money from the government they work for. The money generated by hunting elephants goes to protect the same animals from poachers who don't follow the advice of guides nor are they limited to one animal. The guides also happen to be area tribes men 19 out of 20 times and the safari industry keeps these people working in a part of the world where jobs are scarce. The meat from an elephant goes to the local tribes people as well, offering food to those who need it. In the 80's there was a huge backlash against elephant hunting and safari hunting in general. In the wake of this poaching ran rampant with less and less wardens to deal with them and local tribes lost both money and food. I for one don't see any problem with hunting elephants in areas where there numbers are strong.

A ban on ivory that comes from any source at all seems to be overkill in my eyes. There are still countries and black markets that will buy elephant ivory from poachers. It is kind of like making a law against guns. It would work great if criminals would follow laws. Now I hate poachers as much as anyone out there but I don't have any problem buying or using pre-ban ivory (except the cost). I think the game departments of many countries could benefit from the ability to sell ivory collected by the game department from natural deaths, culling activities and confiscated supplies. With proper oversight and good documentation this would make use of this ivory as I do believe that every part of an animal should be used (chitlins anyone) and also provide more money for the numbers to keep poaching to a minimum. I do understand that poaching was and is a problem for many species but feel that creating and supporting a properly run game department is the best answer. Sorry if I am off topic a bit but I have come across several aniti-ivory sentiments lately and wanted to say something. I love the feel of ivory in the hand and it has a beauty that is not captured by the substitutes out there imo.
 
Ivory is like a Cuban Cigar and an aged Cognac, top of the pinnacle. I have been collecting Mammoth, Walrus (Ivory & Ossic), elephant ivory for nearly 30 years and have built up a supply that will last me for awhile. Polished sheep also has that sticky feel when it is wet. I like all natural materials for knife handles. Cocobolo and African black wood are my two favorite woods for knife handles. However the natural handle materials will move, check, crack or warp if not stabilized. Checkered ivory handled are a plus IMO, as well as fluted handled Bowies. They sure make a nice conversation piece when setting around a camp fire in the Wilds of Alaska and wilderness camps. The natural aging and yellowing of ivory on those old Colts won't hurt your eyes either. Did I say I liked the natural materials??
 
Great post definitely Dustin! The people who want these bans almost never
live or have even visited the places that are going to be most effected by them.
When the bans and propaganda killed the fur industry the damage it did to the native communities in the north was devastating.

I would love to go on safari someday ,not just to hunt but for the whole experience.

Back to the original question ,ivory is and always has been one of the best handle materials and always has been. It is also the only material suitable for
some types of knives like a Price bowie repro.
 
Fiddleback said:
I have a walrus tusk that a dear friend gave me before he died. He said he got it from an Alaskan Eskimo Chief as a gift while he was in the army. I can't bring myself to cut into it its too pretty. And I don't know how legal it is. Mamoth ivory is just too expensive for my skill level knives IMO so I haven't used any of it. But I can say that the tusk I have is just flatly gorgeous.
Click to expand...
No problem, just send it me to and I'll cut it!
I use some mammoth ivory, compliments of our good pal Dave Larsen. I blame the habit on Dave because he gave me some nice scraps that ended up in handle inlays.
 
I have some hippo ivory that I plan to use on an EDC or hunter soon. I've had it for several years and it seems pretty stable. It has a really unique feel in the hand that's hard to describe. If it had a reputation of being more stable, I'd use it a lot, just because of the way it feels.

I didn't realize that sheep horn had that "grippy" feeling when wet. I'll be using it some soon, as well.

Todd
 
Where can a normal guy go to handle some knives made with this stuff?? I live in Denver, so you'd think there'd be somewhere to actually fondle some... What does it actually cost v/s micarta and how fragile is it??
 
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Hi friends,

It's not too difficult to see this is a complex and complicated issue. I, for one, value all viewpoints and folks' efforts at expressing them. Remember the three blind men attempting to describe an elephant (to risk an metaphor that may be too close to our subject)? I'm not trying to imply anyone is blind, just that there are many viewpoints, many of which are "flavored" by one's angle of perspective.

As an organic and biodynamic farmer, I've had many apprentices and customers who were vegetarians and vegans. I was often confronted with concerns for the well being of my livestock and the morality of my harvesting them. For many folks, I felt their stance was justified, when I looked at the inhumane industrial approach to large scale commercial livestock management. I too do not want to support those industries by consuming their animal products. The fact that it's legal doesn't necessarily mean it's moral.

Anyway, for many of these folks, they had to reassess their beliefs and practices on my farm, because my animals were not raised inhumanely. In fact, they lived pretty dern high on the hog. In deed, they were my friends. Never-the-less, I harvested a beef or two each year, not just for their meat, but for just about everything, including bone, horns, hooves, etc.

When it comes to harvesting from living natural resources, things are often delicate. It doesn't have to be ivory. It could be an exoctic hard wood, or any number of the food and material resources of our planet. Yes, there are issues of almost appocoliptic proportions all over the place. That doesn't mean, non appocoliptic issues are unimportant. Nor does it mean that complete abstinence and non-usage is the only answer either.

Of course, when it comes to international, intercultural, intereconomical issues, geesh, talk about complex. For me, it seems to boil down to what do I stand for and what talk am I willing to walk. Thanks for helping me have a bit more of an understanding. I still don't know what my styance is, but tend to figure there's so much other stuff I still need to learn and develop that there are plenty of other materials for me to work with.

As for ivory, I had a piece given to me on two different occasion: one was about an 14" length of narwhal, the other was about 10" of mammoth. I gave half the mammoth to Indian George (he gave me lots of stuff). Both of my pieces were ripped off on separate occasions. Never got to work stuff from either of them. I did make many ivory fids (naval rope working tool) for a guy when I was goldsmithing in Beverly Hills many years ago. Ivory is absolutely amazing stuff! It's like the living bones of the earth mixed with the dusts of the heavens grown mighty and strong. I doubt there is anything grown by the living beings of earth any stronger than ivory.

I value the gifts of the earth and her creatures. But then I collect pine pitch and bird feathers, cow bones and tail switch hair, beeswax and birds' nests, any number of Earth's offerings.

Well, how's that for a ramble?

All the best, Phil
 
I think, as already stated, US laws eliminate the harvest and international traffic issues with legal elephant ivory. Illegal activity is an entirely different issue for law enforcement. It's too bad there's an ideological stigma attatched to the responsible use of a legal material, instead of just preference.

Take care, Craig
 
John Andrews said:
No problem, just send it me to and I'll cut it!
I use some mammoth ivory, compliments of our good pal Dave Larsen. I blame the habit on Dave because he gave me some nice scraps that ended up in handle inlays.
Click to expand...

Hey John, that makes me feel good! And it made me realize I (we) never get to see your knives. I hope I don't have to take a trip to Burlington to see some of your excellent work again but if that's what it takes - well, gas is a little cheaper these days.

Anyway. Why is ivory so valued? As mentioned earlier, it's very traditional. People have been making beautiful ivory objects for 40,000 years. Hard to beat a proven track record like that. People use it because the material itself is beautiful, and has a unique feel in the hand. Aside from rarity, the tactile nature of some materials like gold and ivory lend them a special place among artisians. I think it's just that simple - "If it feels good, use it." :D
 
I didn't read every post, so hope this wasn't covered. If so I apologize for the duplicate.
Ivory was often preferred for knife handles because it doesn't slip when wet with sweat or blood, in fact it gets rather grippy. Of course, you had to have money to afford it. It was expensive even back then.
 
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