Japanese vs Western right/let handed knives.

[jdm61]

I have been thinking odd thought about Japanese right and left handed single bevel knives and something is puzzling me. A Japanese right handed knife is oriented so that when say you have a pice of fish, the fish points to the right and you cut from the left end with your yanagiba. Same with a deba. a right handed deba requires that you pull the knife towards you when removing the fillet. Of the thousands of fish that i have seen cleaned in my lifetime, in most cases, especially with big fish, the cut is away because you are holding the tail. In the case of vegetables, meat etc, in Western cooking, you are using your left hand to hold the food and cut from the right side of the piece most of the time. With the Japanese right handed knife, you can't really hold the food. Nathan made his veggie knife with a "proper" Japanese style right hand grind, but on his knife, it is the bevel and its little grooves that kick the slices of potato out, not the concave back size like on a Japanese knife. You still end up holding the food to the left Western style. So here is the question. For Western hands, might it be more effective for a right handed person to use LEFT handed single bevel knives rather than have to relearn how to cut food?

 

[Brock Cutlery]

This is keeping you up late JM.
Is Nathan's little veggie knife a 'proper' Japanese style grind?
I have watched many a video on sashimi slicing. I always see some left hand holding the fish action. [video=youtube;CVoL37ns-5c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVoL37ns-5c[/video]

The urasuki from my understanding is not to kick any food off the blade, rather it is to reduce or eliminate damage to the food on the slab side. If I have understood it correctly....

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I never had any problem with it. Right hand use means the bevel is on the right side in use. Urasuki is to the left and is there mainly to minimize the amount of blade touching the food being cut. This reduces drag and eliminates tearing on very soft items.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I made my vegetable knife for cutting potatoes. I was tired of them sticking to the side of the blade and marching up and over. When I get potato duty Jo gives me about four of them and a small cutting board. My goal was to be able to cut potatoes and have four neat potato shaped stack of chips when I was done rather than run out of space on the cutting board or dirty a bowl. I'm not really into that elusive "cuts like a light saber" kitchen knife, I just want to cut my chips without drama.

I made four prototypes and cut up a couple bags of potatoes developing them. Before starting this project I didn't know much about kitchen knife geometry. I still don't, but I do know what cuts a potato.

Some things I found that might be of interest to you guys:

I found the Urasuki made that side of the blade stick to the potato. I mean it really sucks on. I ended up putting a shallow convex grind on that side to reduce drag. Otherwise you have to really hold the potato down to the board.

I found that blending the grind into the flat did not reduce drag but did allow food to stick to the blade and ride around the bend into the flat. That shoulder does not contribute to drag and is important to kicking the food off. Resist the urge to blend, it doesn't help.

 

[jdm61]

I stand corrected. As for aAte's blade ,I meant that it is properly right handed.

This is keeping you up late JM.
Is Nathan's little veggie knife a 'proper' Japanese style grind?
I have watched many a video on sashimi slicing. I always see some left hand holding the fish action. [video=youtube;CVoL37ns-5c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVoL37ns-5c[/video]

The urasuki from my understanding is not to kick any food off the blade, rather it is to reduce or eliminate damage to the food on the slab side. If I have understood it correctly....

 

[jdm61]

Feeling a tad dumb not. LOL.What is the thinking with the deba?

I never had any problem with it. Right hand use means the bevel is on the right side in use. Urasuki is to the left and is there mainly to minimize the amount of blade touching the food being cut. This reduces drag and eliminates tearing on very soft items.

 

[jdm61]

That is interesting about the urasuki sticking. I do remember you talking about the parabolic grind dealing with the "stiction" issue.

I made my vegetable knife for cutting potatoes. I was tired of them sticking to the side of the blade and marching up and over. When I get potato duty Jo gives me about four of them and a small cutting board. My goal was to be able to cut potatoes and have four neat potato shaped stack of chips when I was done rather than run out of space on the cutting board or dirty a bowl. I'm not really into that elusive "cuts like a light saber" kitchen knife, I just want to cut my chips without drama.

I made four prototypes and cut up a couple bags of potatoes developing them. Before starting this project I didn't know much about kitchen knife geometry. I still don't, but I do know what cuts a potato.

Some things I found that might be of interest to you guys:

I found the Urasuki made that side of the blade stick to the potato. I mean it really sucks on. I ended up putting a shallow convex grind on that side to reduce drag. Otherwise you have to really hold the potato down to the board.

I found that blending the grind into the flat did not reduce drag but did allow food to stick to the blade and ride around the bend into the flat. That shoulder does not contribute to drag and is important to kicking the food off. Resist the urge to blend, it doesn't help.

 

[comet_sharp]

The small hollow will create suction and food stickage. Most knives with an Ura are used for slicing and like Stacy said the small hollow means less drag while slicing so you will not tear delicate things, like the flesh of a fish. I prefer a deba at work for breaking down fish, its faster than a flimsy boning knife and gives me much better fillets, though I had to learn the proper technique to use it. I like to microbevel the last 2" or so by the choil for cutting bones and the rest of the blade I sharpen normally. Here is a video of someone breaking down a kingfish using a Deba.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5cmMvH-auWs

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I made my vegetable knife for cutting potatoes. I was tired of them sticking to the side of the blade and marching up and over. When I get potato duty Jo gives me about four of them and a small cutting board. My goal was to be able to cut potatoes and have four neat potato shaped stack of chips when I was done rather than run out of space on the cutting board or dirty a bowl. I'm not really into that elusive "cuts like a light saber" kitchen knife, I just want to cut my chips without drama.

I made four prototypes and cut up a couple bags of potatoes developing them. Before starting this project I didn't know much about kitchen knife geometry. I still don't, but I do know what cuts a potato.

Some things I found that might be of interest to you guys:

I found the Urasuki made that side of the blade stick to the potato. I mean it really sucks on. I ended up putting a shallow convex grind on that side to reduce drag. Otherwise you have to really hold the potato down to the board.

I found that blending the grind into the flat did not reduce drag but did allow food to stick to the blade and ride around the bend into the flat. That shoulder does not contribute to drag and is important to kicking the food off. Resist the urge to blend, it doesn't help.

I didn't mean to impugn your grind Nathan and hope I didn't come off that way. You certainly solved the sticking issue and your selling these out in 10 minutes is testament to that fact.
Regarding a convex, apparently there is something in cutting technique that makes this work to reduce stickage. I've yet to learn that secret. But convex is widely accepted in the chef community as an effective grind in that respect. From there the convex grind I think is as complicated as any other aspect of the geometry of the blade. A simple linear convex is just a starting point.
If anyone can shed light on cutting technique regarding stickage I'd love to hear...

 

[jdm61]

You saw how he had to go "crosshand" on that one cut when he grabbed the tail? That is what i was talking about. Oh, and as a Pensacola guy you that ain't no kingfish and he forget to pull off the skin with a pair of pliers..

The small hollow will create suction and food stickage. Most knives with an Ura are used for slicing and like Stacy said the small hollow means less drag while slicing so you will not tear delicate things, like the flesh of a fish. I prefer a deba at work for breaking down fish, its faster than a flimsy boning knife and gives me much better fillets, though I had to learn the proper technique to use it. I like to microbevel the last 2" or so by the choil for cutting bones and the rest of the blade I sharpen normally. Here is a video of someone breaking down a kingfish using a Deba.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5cmMvH-auWs

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I didn't mean to impugn your grind Nathan and hope I didn't come off that way.

Not at all. :thumbup:

That is interesting about the urasuki sticking. I do remember you talking about the parabolic grind dealing with the "stiction" issue.

I think stiction is partly adhesion due to surface tension and sticky food, and also can be suction. The idea behind the parabolic grind was to create a bevel that starts off fairly flat but develops a lot of curvature as the grind approaches the shoulder to encourage the food to pop off as it reaches the top of the grind. This addresses adheasion, but not suction. The idea behind the scallops was to allow lots of paths for air and reduced area for adhesion. The end result strips food off pretty well, even thin sliced meat and cheese, but does tend to bind in rigid food where the rigid side of the cut is on the same side as the bevel, thus it doesn't work well in things like cutting up a melon and wouldn't work as a double bevel concept.