Jeff Randall and Tactical Knives

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HUNTER3897

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I read the TOPS thread from beginning to end last night. I'm not on here as much as I used to be, so as usual, I got here after all of the fireworks. I started lurking at BFC around June/July of '99. I was here everyday, several times a day, for around six months before I posted. What got me to post? A thread started by Walt Welch titled, "Best Frieking Poster Of The Millennium". I just tried for an hour to find it, but couldn't. Anyway, I listed several guys who I thoroughly enjoyed reading posts by, and had a lot of respect for. The ones that come to mind are Cliff Stamp and Greg Mete. (KodiakPA) I saved the best for last and picked Jeff Randall as my favorite poster. IIRC, I said something to the effect of, "Anyone with his experience, who recommends an $18 machete and a $5 diamond stone from Wal-Mart, is tops in my book." I also said something about how it is clear he doesn't have an agenda. It's been a while, so don't quote me to the letter. In all the time I have been here, my opinions have changed a lot about quite a few people. I still enjoy reading Cliff's posts. I have the same amount of respect I had for Greg Mete. Actually that's not true. I probably have MORE respect for Greg. It is a shame he doesn't post here as much as he used to. Jeff Randall? He is still my favorite guy here and his attitude about freedom of expression that he displayed in the TOPS thread only reinforced that feeling. This is a much better place because he frequents it.

Now on to Steve Dick, Harris Publications, and Tactical Knives. This morning, I noticed that Steven Dick was perusing the General Forum. I clicked on his name and tried to send him an email. It told me that he didn't want people to send him emails. Just as well. It reinforces my opinion of him. He did list his homepage as Tactical Knives. I went there and noticed that they publish a lot of gun, knife, and outdoor publications that I have bought in the past. Now, Steven Dick, I have a question for you, as I KNOW you are reading this. Where do you and Harris Publications, who profit heavily from people who are outdoorsman and believe in FREEDOM more than any other demographic in the world, where do you get off telling Jeff Randall what he can and can't say in HIS PERSONAL life? For the life of me, you must be the most narrow minded, can't see the forest for the trees kind of people I have ever come across. Who the HELL do you think is buying your magazines??? Do you think it is liberal pantie WASTES who would rather slowly surrender all of their freedoms to the government in the name of "security" than stand up for one freedom that this country was founded on? Do you think it is the politically correct morons who see which way the sheeple are shi##### before they dare offer up a morsel of an opinion? Wake the hell up! They are the people trying to get publications and the things I thought you guys stood for, banned. I don't subscribe to your magazine because I want to choose whether I like the content of something before I buy it. But you know what? I have bought every issue since you started publishing Tactical Knives. I was highly impressed by a publication that would have the balls to call itself Tactical. I was highly impressed by a publication that would actually suggest that a knife was NOT just a tool for the farm, BUT a tool that can be used to protect my life and the life of my family. Lastly, I was highly impressed with a publication that would hire the sorts of Jeff Randall. To say the least, what you guys pulled on Jeff Randall, is ANYTHING but Tactical. The name of your magazine should now be changed to Sheeple Knives & Opinions. I have just cut out every article in your past issues that Jeff wrote, and all of his Survival columns. The rest of the magazine, every one I have bought, is going in the trash. I will NEVER buy a Harris Publication again. People who write for your publication, have now lost my respect. They can save all of the "I need to feed the family otherwise I would have stuck up for Jeff" crap for the garbage pile that is now your past issues. If you don't believe in the basic freedoms that this country was founded on, then you are the worst kind of hypocrites out there. Pretending to espouse the mantra of freedom, while all the while stripping it as you pull money from my wallet. I will let people on every hunting, fishing, knife, and outdoor board I frequent, know what kind of hypocrites you are. I will list all of the publications that you put out that are outdoor related. I am also sending an email to Tactical Knives, and so I know that my opinion isn't buried, I am also sending one to Harris Publications. Go to this link if you would like to do the same. Scroll down and you will find 2 email addresses. Even if you just send a one word sentence stating you are through with them because of what they did to Jeff Randall, you can bet they will do some digging.
http://www.tacticalknives.com

Jim McCullough
 
While I am upset with TK magazine, I also won't be forgetting who I have to thank for making it an issue in the first place...I surely hope they are happy with what they accomplished.

I will still read TK magazine, but I will be calling them on the phone ( I forgot to call yesterday ) to express my opinion of what they have done, and specifically my opinion of Steven Dick, who apparently is the driving force behind the attempted coercion.
 
Rather than edit my original post, and make it look like I changed something, I will correct one of my last lines here. "One word sentence" should be "Just send one sentence". I am also sending out a challenge to the other people who write for this magazine, to come into this thread and tell us how you feel about what they did to Jeff. We all know you are reading this. Either you believe for standing up for what is right, or you are one of the "sheeple" who are the problem. I am not telling you that you are a "sheeple" if you don't back Jeff Randall. I am saying that you are "sheeple" if you let this happen to Jeff without letting people know how you feel. Anthony Lombardo has already stepped up to the plate. Who's on deck?

Jim McCullough
 
Keep in mind you are only hearing one side of this story. Many, many people do not and will not peruse this forum. There's always more than one side to a story, especially when all you hear is one person huffing and puffing. Big deal.
 
I don't think what someone writes on an open forum should be cause to lose a job. It's opinions, just like what's written in the rags. Knife folks more than ANYONE should respect our freedoms. So the argument got a little heated, so what? We're all adults here, and can take care of ourselves.
 
Jim,
I absolutley agree with you. The free exchnge of ideas, even when they are not ones you espouse, is central to a free society. I have bought my last issue of TK. I would suggest we begin a letter writing campaign to Harris telling them why we are upset. IF it is Steve Dick's policy to censor the free speech of his contributing editors, then maybe Harris Publishing needs to know about it.
Chad
 
Count me in. I am a former subscriber, going back to '95. I let it lapse in 2000, and was just last night considering taking it back up.

Then I read "THE BOOK" (the now infamous closed post). I'm glad I could sit it out and let others have at it. I don't have an opinion on any of the brands mentioned (hah-I bought a Greco!). But the basic issue of a man being able to express himself, either here or even in a magazine of the type TAC-Knives is supposed to be, has pulled me into this.

I will be notifying them also of this stupid editorial mistake on their part, perhaps to the detriment of others still on staff (sorry), but it needs to be done. Jim has penned one of the most eloquent posts as to the whys and hows, so I won't add anything here.

Well I guess I will....

One aspect that needs to be emphasized again that Jim mentioned is the fact that you would think the men and women who frequent this board and who buy all those magazines in the first place SHOULD HAVE AN INFLUENCE over the editorial direction of the magazine. We are proud of our heritage and our rights bought with the blood of Patriots, so to hell with political correctness. We as a breed are anything BUT politically correct.

And to the jack-ass in the other thread (the closed one)who kept ranting about "journalistic this" and "proffessional that"-stick it in your ear. THIS IS NOT ABOUT JOURNALISM THIS IS ABOUT TESTING THE WORTH OF A STEEL BLADE. Jeff Randall, to my knowledge doesn't write for "Rosie Odonnel (boo-hiss)" or "20-20", he wrote for FREAKIN' TACTICAL KNIVES!!! Like I said who cares about friggin' "Proffessional Journalistic Standards"? CAN YOU HEAR THE 'LISP' WHEN I TYPED THAT? (can you tell I'm gettin' more pissed as I write this?). This is a magazine that talks about how to defend an attack from a knife, WITH A KNIFE! And how to tame a freakin' South American Jungle and what to use to do it. GIVE ME, NO GIVE US A FREAKIN' BREAK!!! Jeff Randall isn't reviewing the latest flippin' lawn mower for the White House Golf Course! He writes about using an AFCK to skin an Anaconda, and while not a bad blade for the job, it isn't made for the jungle. GRRRRRR...man that journalism crap just really riled me up. Like we are supposed to respect 'journalists'? With all the crap they write everyday? Is Col. Jeff Cooper a journalist or a man? Did he piss people off? Of course that is what made him a REAL MAN. A real man speaks what's on his mind as he knows it...NOT AS HE IS TOLD IT!

Listen my fellow forumites, this is not about whether you agree with Jeff or not this is about his RIGHT TO SAY WHAT HE WANTS-AND YOUR RIGHT TO ARGUE THE POINT-WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRISAL OR PUNISHMENT. Nobody, and I mean nobody, better start on me with that stupid cliche crap about yelling FIRE! in a crowded building. If you can't see the difference between this and that, well...no point in even explaining it.

Man, I have to stop....

Good Post Jim-thanks for taking time to write it.

Perhaps the advertisers (kaching!) in TAC-Knives have gotten the upper hand over the subscribers?

ONE TIRED DOG....

Mongrel
 
Sheesh, reading the TOPS thread is like a rite of passage.

The part I don't get is the battle between Jeff and Cliff. Mostly what I see is that Jeff is upset because Cliff has made negative comments about knives made by some of Jeff's friends! Few of us live "on the edge" as it were, but all of the knife makers do controlled testing, Jerry B so much as said so in that very thread. So why is Jeff so critical of Cliff? If Cliff tests two knives designed for similar missions and one breaks while the other doesn't, he reports it, so what? How is this any different than Jeff expressing the opinion that knife A is better or worse than knife B in real jungle use?

Cliff has always been very careful to distinguish opinion based on hearsay, and observations made while using the knives he writes about. Cliff has gone out of his way to acknowledge that factors like price and ease of sharpening might outweigh superior cut-to-cut performance of more expensive tools in the real jungle, but for some reason (other perhaps than the aforementioned friendships), Jeff is unable to turn around and concede the validity of what Cliff has to say. It seems to me, that <i>knife users</i> like myself like what Cliff is doing, while <i>knife makers</i> don't. That says a lot right there.

Trace R., didn't you have to pass some potentially destructive tests to gain your ABS rating? Don't you still test some of your knives that way? If not, how do you know they can all still take it? If so, why would you be afraid to let Cliff test one of your knives?

The warrenty issue is something else again. I can understand the "we'll decide what's abuse" clauses where more delicate knives are concerned, but not for those "take you to hell and back" survival knives! Cliff broke a Busse, and JB made marketing hay out of it! Why can't the rest of you (survival knife makers) do the same? Are there really that many people out there who would destroy a knife just to get a new one?

Anyway, good thread. Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
 
Trace R., didn't you have to pass some potentially destructive tests to gain your ABS rating? Don't you still test some of your knives that way? If not, how do you know they can all still take it? If so, why would you be afraid to let Cliff test one of your knives?
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I have owned several Rinaldi blades, all were of excellent quality. These knives were of excellent, design, manufacture and used state of the art materials. I have no doubt that Rinaldi knives are capable of withstanding incredible stress. They have been used in the real world, by real people. People trust Rinaldi blades with their lives. Trace is also a great guy to deal with. I have never read of a bad experience with Trace Rinaldi. By all accounts he is an honorable, talented artist and a credit to our passion.
I think the ABS tests you mentioned are for the heat and beat crowd, Trace makes his knives through the stock removal method and the steel is heat treated by Paul Bos, the best in the business.
I would have no problem sending one of my Rinaldi knives off to Cliff for testing. Will it break if abused, yes of course, any knife can be destroyed. Rinaldi knives capture the "total package" that Caffery writes of, the blend of handling, high cutting performance, elegance and simplicity of functional design and durability. Rinaldi knives gain their strength, not from being overbuilt, but by using high quality materials and heat treatment and by superior design which increases ergonomics and reduces stress risers. I am quite confident that my Rinaldi blades can handle any task they were designed for.

Chad
 
Aren't tests done by one person completely subjective? As far as the science behind it, it's really not scientific and should never claim to be. Is there a control group? Can all findings be consistantly repeated? Is it all done in a controlled environment? None of it can be taken as fact, it's simply one man's opinion. (Which by the way, I don't have a problem with) Is it a shock that ANYONE can damage a knife? Sure, some will take certain use longer than others, but what exactly does that prove? Many complaints come from handle discomfort, which is as personal as it can get. How many factors are in play making a knife more or less "comfortable"? Just more to think about as far as I'm concerned.
Edited to add: Chad, I think you're absolutely right. Trace makes excellent knives that will stand up to hard use and even abuse, and I'm not afraid to go out and use them.
 
Dang, I missed all these threads 'til now. We are having some fun!

I think the threads about Cliff generally generate more heat than light, though there's no denying they can be great fun. You can almost feel some people's blood pressures rise and teeth grind.

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that most knifemakers and some collectors/users/fans don't like Cliff or his methodology, and I understand why, having read the reasons countless times. But most collectors/users/fans do appreciate Cliff's work, based on my observations and discussions with others. Like many, I count myself solidly among the latter, whereas some of my favorite knifemakers and forum members are among the former. Sometimes I feel Cliff pushes a knife further than I think is reasonable; in those cases, I simply ignore his conclusions from those parts of the tests. I read what happens anyway, because even going too far can teach you things.

Getting back to the original topic, TK is in an unenviable position. Whether we like it or not, writers for a particular magazine are often identified with that magazine, and at some point it is perfectly reasonable for the magazine to make a business decision to sever ties when it believes it's getting negative publicity from having employed a particular writer. But, while I strongly defend the right of a magazine to sever its ties with a writers whose behavior it believes reflects badly on the magazine, I definitely don't believe the thread in question justifies anything like that, and it seems unwise to me to abandon one of your stronger writers based on the content of that thread.

In short, I agree with those of you who think this is a bad decision on Tactical Knives part. But, I can also go back to the responses above me and quote parts that seem to imply that the magazine should not ever fire a writer based on something the writer did in his personal life (that is, not in the capacity of an employee of the magazine). That, I disagree with strongly, and if you sit and think about it, you will, too. I can easily supply examples where I'd bet anything you'd be clamoring for a writer's head.
 
But, I can also go back to the responses above me and quote parts that seem to imply that the magazine should not ever fire a writer based on something the writer did in his personal life (that is, not in the capacity of an employee of the magazine). That, I disagree with strongly, and if you sit and think about it, you will, too
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I agree, and I don't think very many reasonable people would argue to the contrary. My statements were limited to the facts and statements as they pertain to Jeff's actual participation here at BFC.
If a writer was to openly advocate racism or something of that ilk, then Tk would be justified in dissmissing them. All Jeff did was call Cliff an idiot and whatnot. So what. He made public the editorial policy of the magazine. So what. Nothing Jeff did would justify dismissal.
Were his actions a personal attack? Where they in violation of forum rules? That is up to Spark. In any event, it is not relavent to his being a writer for TK.

Chad
 
Matthew,

Don't take what Jeff said in that thread only at face value. As long as I have been a member, and I'm sure before that, Jeff and Cliff have been going at it. It used to be friendly jabs, but as you can see, the gloves are now most certainly off. For a while now, there has been an us verse them thing surrounding Cliff. It is more an unspoken thing. You have been here long enough that you have probably experienced it. You either have to be pro or anti Cliff. Well, I am neutral Cliff. I have always thoroughly enjoyed his reviews, taking the things that pertain to me, and leaving the other things behind. I have defended him in the past and will continue to do so, even though it is not "cool" anymore to like Cliff. What I am defending is his right to express his opinion. A lot of times, I don't agree with what he says, or more to the point, HOW he says it, but I will always jump in and defend his right to say it. That being said, a shitstorm always seems to follow him whenever he enters a thread. Is most of it his responsibility? Sure it is, but some of it is from people trying to put a muzzle on him. I don't think this was Jeff's intention. I have only talked to Jeff via email a couple of times, but what I have learned from his posts is that you can describe him with one word- independent. He is his own man, and that is why I respect him so much. In my opinion, he was calling out Cliff for what he saw as bull####. He was doing it because it looked to him like Cliff was making stuff up, not because he wanted to shut Cliff up. Sure he got personal, but as I said, this has been brewing for some time. Should the man have lost his job for it? Obviously, I think not. Are there things that a writer should lose his job over as Joe Talmadge said? Sure. If someone was guilty of plagiarism,(sp) child molesting, or other such things, they should lose their job. This reflects very adversely on the company. A man speaking his mind, on his own time, should NOT be grounds for his dismissal. Especially from a company that cators to a crowd that values personal freedom as much as we do.

I know netiquette and am aware that this isn't "my" thread, but I still would like to say something. I hope that this thread doesn't degenerate into Jeff vs Cliff, or this testing method vs that one. That was hashed out in the last one, and if someone wants to bring it up again, please start another thread about that topic. I would like this thread to remain about Jeff's rights as a writer for Tactical Knives. Pro or con, please post what you feel about what was done to him.
 
I apologize for straying from the thread. I happen to agree with most of you that TKs dismissal of Jeff is unjustified, especially in this environment where, I hope, we can all get a little steamed under the collar once in a while, and where Seven Dick certainly knows as much about Cliff and any controversey surrounding him as well as Jeff does, etc.

As for Trace Rinaldi knives, I meant to cast no aspersions. Mr. Rinaldi, in the now infamous TOPS thread, said he wouldn't want Cliff to test one of his knives, and I thought that an interesting statement coming from a knife maker whose knives have as much reputation as his do (and one day I'll have one too). I know that Cliff does not begin his testing by smashing a knife through concrete. First come more restrained cutting tests. I'm sure there are many (the majority) of knives out there that would stop performing (dulled edges, etc.) long before they got to the concrete blocks. Nor would Cliff (my opinion here) take something like a bird & trout knife and expect it to split wood let alone concrete... Cliff (and his methods, purposes) is indeed controversial, but he is far from an idiot as claimed by Jeff R.
 
The problem is people have different ideas how tough "survival knives" needs to be. Some people think the best survival knife is a small thin cutter that can perform fine campcraft, others want to chop concrete, still others want something in between. Naturally not all would do well, or need to do well in destruction testing. I think many custom makers are rightfully concerned that having their knife destroyed publicly would damage the perception of their products.
 
Jim,
I think it is an interesting observation you made about it not being cool to "like" Cliff. I don't think you can examine Jeff's actions in a vacum, they have to be looked at in light of the totality of the circumstances, including how Cliff presents himself on the forums, and why his posts are so contraversial.
For the record, I like Cliff, I really do. I exchange email with him quite frequently and have learned a lot from him. I also get a different sense of Cliff in our private correspondence than the image that is portrayed of him at BFC (though to be honest I am quite limited in my forum browsing time right now.) The Cliff that I know is interested in performance characteristics as they relate to edge geometery and finish. The issues that Cliff and I have discussed are in the context of work that is required in clearing tracks of land.
The image that most people have of Cliff, is the blade breaker and knife smasher. While that may be some of his work, it is the minority. Yet, that is what people look to Cliff for. Why? Because it is sensational and causes drama.
A man that I have complete and total respect for, and is one of the finest outdoorsman I know, has a very low opinion of Cliff and his testing methods. Jeff Randall and Ron Hood, both experts in their field, hold the opinion that Cliff is full of $hit. Many knifemakers don't hold Cliff in high regards.
Given that context, and the extreme nature of some of Cliff's testing relative to normal knife usage, and given the fact that what Cliff writes can have an impact on people who make their living selling the knives they make, it is not unreasonable for someone to come to the conclusions that Jeff has.
Do I agree with everything that Cliff writes? Nope, and I don't agree with everything that Jeff Randall or Ron Hood writes either.
I don't accept things at face value, or based soley on the authority of who said it. I refuse to be a faceless coward. I insist on thinking for myself. Jeff Randall and Cliff Stamp (and most of the people reading this) feel the same way I'm sure.
The exchange of ideas is only significant if it is free of undue burden and censorship.
Chad
 
I have no part of the ABS, as I am a stock removal guy.. I have people I TRUST who test knives for me, and I myself test my knives to destruction. Over the years here since Bladeforums began, Cliff has been causing trouble in my opinion, and that opinion is shared by EVERY knife maker I have ever talked to on the subject and thats ALOT of em. Thats not cause I bring it up, it just always seem to come into conversation.. (Cliff you are a FAMOUS man in the knife industry whether you know it or not).. Now I have to say Cliff has been much better about this stuff since the time when just about EVERYONE revolted and said F-OFF Cliffy, a while back.. He isnt slicing bricks with filet knives and wondering why they dont have that hair popping edge anymore:-)Then posting it.. (Poor Example but not far off)
I never said I DIDNT want Cliff to test one of my knives, I said I would never SELL him a knife... If he wants to buy a knife from a dealer, or someone on the forums thats his ball of wax.. I personally dont want to deal with the guy..
And I certainly wouldnt put much faith in what he had to say good or bad simply because I doubt he gets off his A$$ and away from the puter long enough to actually DO ANY Tests...

Now you guys may not have been here long enough to know why so many dislike this individual, so just keep that in mind..
Hopefully that clears this up, and I wont have to comment any further...

Lets NOT make this another CLiff Stamp thread, there is PLENTY in the other one, I just wanted to clear up a few things for Mathew and a couple others that are in the dark...
 
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