Jerry Busse's Dilemma

After reading this thread I thought I should chime in and give Grunt's point of view. I have been an Infantryman for over 14 years now and have been to the field in some of the worst conditions imaginable all over the world. I have also owned all types of knives.
For the average user I agree with what many people here have said. Most any high quality knife will perform well and do all that is asked of it and probably more. The whole argument "my knife can beat up your knife" is pretty silly for the most part, I agree.
There are many great knife makers who make wonderful products and I would take them camping, use them around the house, or just enjoy them. Many of these products will perform admirably by any measure and do so for a good price. The number of high quality makers whose knives I like is countless.
Having said that there are only two makers whose knives I will carry in the field, Busse(to include Swamp Rat Knife Works)and Strider. I own and use both. These two makers have a common goal which they approach via different paths, to make a knife that will not fail. These makers stand behind their products, period. In addition to that both makers are responsive to customer needs and demands. Also both of these companies support the military above and beyond what some other makers do.
I however disagree with some things that have been said here.
think the main reason Busse are not written about in Tactical Knive Magazine's is because they are a 100% utility knife. The point is not correct for military people. If I wanted a tactical fighting knife my first choice would be a Mad Dog ATAK or a Ka-Bar.
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A utility knife is precisely what I need. Any fantasies about knife fighting are just that, fantasies. Anyone who picks a field knife for it's "fighting abilities",ie thrusts, snap cuts, grip transitions, or any of the other drivel I have read about here on the forums and in magazines they need help, in the form of an NCO to kick them in the pants. All of those things are fine if that is your hobby but not for military use. If I have to stab someone with a knife it will be attached to the end of my rifle. It is called a bayonet, and the point on that is just what the doctor ordered. A stout, fixed blade, mid sized utility knife is the most useful thing to have in my experience. And if as a last resort I had stab someone with it the could cancel Christmas, Ramadan, etc.

An infantryman's tool should be light, cheap, strong, and sharp with an excellent sheath. The BK-7 does all this for about 50 dollars on the 'net. Edge retention is not a major concern for most folks, but ease of resharpening IS.
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I agree with this to a point. An Infantrymans tool should strong, sharp, and have a good sheath. The tool in question however should be heavy enough to get the job done and of as high a quality as the individual can afford. Both of my grandfathers taught me to buy the highest qualiy tools you can afford and take care of them.

My bottom line is simple my needs go beyond almost all other users in the knife buying public. I buy buy knives that I feel confidence in both the product and manufacturer. The knives I carry have proven themselves to me personally. If you want to accuse me of being on the Busse or Strider bandwagon so be it. If a maker out there wants to send me a knife to test and review in the field I will do so and give an objective opinion. If some one else can provide the same level of product performance, customer support/warranty, I will step up to the plate and say so. However if their knives fail to measure up I will say that as well.
Sorry for the rant but I hate when people bring Grunts into the matter. I am constantly suprised at some of the ideas people have about military knife use.
 
SharpBits said:

Doesn't Camillus (BK&T) make several "Black Lasers?" I'm glad they do, as I would never be able to afford a "real" Fisk.
No offense meant. I just feel uncomfortable discussing customs and other brands in someone else's forum.
-SB
BTW: Save the Magnum Camp! How about a L.E. Fisk with Micarta or Ironwood handle scales and a naked blade??



yep, and all of them seem to sell from $50-100 dollars. A pretty reasonable price point considering what they bring to the table.


Nick,
Your input is greatly appreciated. All of this boils down to personal preferences and how much money you are willing to spend.
You are definately the upper 1% of enlisted man out there if you are willing to pay several hundreds of dollars for a semi-disposable item.
What made you select Busse and Strider for your needs only? Do you feel that their respective products are superior to the products of custom knifemakers that produce Military-style FB's like Brend, Hammond, Hossom, Carson, Fisk etc,?
 
First thing, I would like to be very clear in what I have to say so there is no confusion. My views are just that.. my views, based on my experience as an Infantry NCO. I do not work for anyone but Uncle Sam. I have no knife makers axe to grind nor am I a rabid supporter of any maker in particular, like some here in these forums who are willing to come to blows, or so they say/type,if you don't agree with them or the knife maker they champion. Also I don't have anything against any particular maker unless they put out an obvious cheap rip-off piece of crap. I have in the past commented favorably on Busse and Strider Knives and will continue to do so. And if I find another maker which does the same things and puts out the same kind of product I will be happy and discuss them as well. If you do not agree with me...Good, that is what America and the forums are about. Iam not writing this to argue only to clarify my point of view.
Having said all that I would like to give a clear understanding of what a Grunt, Infantryman, Field Soldier, uses a knife for. We open MRE's with them, we pry open crates, we chop wood/clear brush, we pry things like doors, floors and cars open, and we chop and slice all manner of things we probably shouldn't. We do not slit throats, stab people, make snap cuts, tranition to different fighting grips, or any of the other fancy stuff I here so much about in the knife press and here on these forums. Not even the Special operators do these things. This is purely fantasy. Taking out a Sentry with a knife is a rare thing and one which is not as easy as people would have you to believe. With all the equipment soldiers wear knives are a low percentage weapon. Have there been occasions where one soldier has stabbed another in combat? Sure. There are situations where hand to hand combat will ensue. I will at that time fix my bayonet, my knife will be the tool of last resort after my entrenching tool (which is also sharp by the way). There is none of the knife fighting people seem to imagine. If you are into this as a hobby, like a martial art or something...enjoy. By all means buy all the knive designed for such things that you want.
The reason I chose the makers and knives that I carry are performance, no nonsense down and dirty design, the guarantee offered by the makers, and the way the men who make them do business.
I can buy a medium sized fixed blade from eithe Strider or Busse for under $350.00. Even less if I buy used and send it back to them for refinish. And even less still if I buy a knife from Swamp Rat Knife Works, about $125.00, with the same type of guarante as Busse, thier parent company. The knife I recive will have no bells or whistles, just an overbuilt knife that will grip securely in my hand and do any of the things I mentioned above, that a knife should do, and a few it shouldn't. If I break or damage the knife through use both makers will either fix or repair my knife. Both makers have stated in public what their guarentees cover,everything. The whole issue of guarentees has been beaten to death here on the forums. Picking betwen the two is like apples and oranges and my closet looks like fruit salad because I own and use both. Go to their web sites and read what these makers have to say about what they do and why they do it, especially Striders Mission Statment.
If one of my soldiers shows up with a quality production knife such as the Becker Line, or any of the other comparable knifes from a large manufacturer such as Camillus, Buck, Cold Steel, Gerber, etc. I would not say much as long as the knife was not too over the top and was of a practical size. However I would not expect one of these knives to perform to the same standard as one of mine.
Mr Lombardo,all the makers you mentioned are custom makers and by all accounts I have read here on the forums highly skilled makers and great gentlemen to deal with. Many people like their knives. I would however not take these gentlmans knives with me to combat. For the most part the designs I saw by these makers seemed a little "Hollywood" to me and again some mention of knife fighting type stuff. Fancy recurves and pretty handles are not very practical for down and dirty work in the mud. Setting the designs aside, the least expensive knife I could find by the gentlemen listed(with the exception of Hammond, I couldnt find him on the net) was a boot knife for $400.00. Some of these knives went for as much as $1,400.00. If I were to break or damage severly one of their knives would they have one on hand to replace my damaged one with if they were even willing to do such a thing?
IF you love knives and have the money, time and patience to wait for your knife to be completed call one of the gentleman listed by Mr Lombardo and you will get a knife that will function well and be a thing of beauty for hunting, camping, and general utility. I'm sure from what I know of these men from reading on the forums you will enjoy dealing with them and recieve a wonderful product. In fact I'm sure I would enjoy having a beer with these gentlemen and discussing knives with them.
The only reason I posted to this thread was to try and give an idea of what Grunts do with knives and what knives work well for these things. I feel if anyone is going to speak about Grunts and their knife needs it should be a Grunt, a professional SOLDIER.


I would like to sum up by saying yes..choice of knives are a matter of opinion. And we all know about opinions.

Bashing anyone in particular is childish and leads to silly arguments. Bein a keyboard warrior is stupid.

Fancy knives and knife fighting stuff have no place in Infantry Operations. "We deal in lead Friend" ( I stole that from a book I read).

Rambo and Commando were just movies, the knives in them were cool but impractical.

Thank you for listening and remember this is just my .02 and YMMV. :D :p :D

Nick
 
Nick,
Your points are both well-founded and well taken.

As far as your decisions, they seem to be well researched and I applaud you.

As far as your choices, you seem to center around the guarantee.
I think a great, unconditional guarantee is a terrific customer service technique as well as a testimonial regarding a maker's faith in their product.

As long as you don't mind paying for it up front, that is.


As far as real grunts being the only one qualified to evaulate combat knives, you bring up another very good point.
Does that make all designers without military experience unqualified to design "combat" knives?

Just a thought.
 
I know Newt Livesy is a great knife maker who comes to mind,who was in the military,and a couple of his knives are made for fighting as well as utility.
I purchased a Air Assault for my brother who is a Special Operator,he is overseas as we speak and HAS used his air assault for what you called fantasies.So it might not happen alot but trust me its not a fantasy.

What im confused about is why would a military person be prying car doors open,that one I dont understand.
Me personaly ive never served in the military because of a promise I made my aunt while she was dying,but after asking all my family members who haved served in every war since WW2 they have never had to pry open car doors.
Asking my father who served 1 tour in Korea and 1 in Vietnam,and my uncle who served 2 tours in Vietnam,They said we used are K-BARS to open ammo crates sometimes we used them to open stubborn c-rats and we used them to either slit the enemys throat or pig stickem when it was time for close quarter or the situation had to be quiet.

Nick,I dont know if you have ever served in combat but you never know if you will ever have to use your blade as a defense,So I personally dont agree with you on your post where you said that blades are not used for defense in combat,because ive been told diffrent from 3 family members that they did.
But thats just 3 combat vets opinion.
 
Whoops almost forgot,I have a BIG bolo blade that my grandaddy used in the war,it has 17 notches in the handle guess what those notches mean:D
 
I will post once more on this subject. Not being in the military or having been in the military does not mean you are not qualified to design or evaluate knives. I think we should just give more thought to what a knife is used for in military combat. I'm sure the majority of knife designers/makers have no Combat Arms, ie Infantry, Armor, Artillery experience. Just because you are/were in the military does not mean much. While all jobs in the military are vital most do not require the servicemember to have the skills to be in the field and be at the tip of the bayonet so to speak.


As for Newt Livesay, I own one of his U.S. Marshals. It is a good knife at a good price from a quality maker. In fact I really like the handle on my US Marshal and find it very compfartable. I just prefer the other knives in my collection.

I'm not quite sure I understand the concept of paying for the warranty up front. The only way I know of is to pay for it later by buying another one of the the knife that failed. Yes you do pay for the warrantee but I feel that is worth it. If standing behind your product is a marketing technique than I say GOOD. All makers should have the confidence in there product to be able to do this. The only problem is the large number of idiots who would send in their knives over trivial matters or after intentional damage when they were simply tired of them.

Featherstone:
It seems your family defintly pro military and has served our country well.

If your Father and Uncle are combat veterans I will not dispute what they have to say on the matter in public. They deserve my respect. But you will notice that they seemed to get a lot more utility use than killing use out of them. Also ask them if they did anything fancy like transition from saber grip to icepick grip repeatedly while trapping a limb with their blade. Or did they use the method Antonio Banderas' character advocated in the movie Zorro "Stick the pointy end in the other man". I am willing to bet on the latter.

As far as prying car doors open goes I have had to pry open car trunks etc. as well as other difficult things while searching for weapons. I did not say that a knife would not be used for defense I said it would be a last resort after I had fixed my bayonet. It is not the use of a knife in combat that is a fantasy it is all the fancy crap tht people seem to think goes on and that they use for choice in picking out a knife or design. When you adrenaline is pumping and you are tired fine motorskills go out the window.

Also while your brother may well have killed someone with his knife I doubt that he was doing the fancy things people seem so fond of doing with their knives, snap cuts, grip reversals, thrusts, and parries, and snaps....... oh my. Read some of the topics in the Tactics and Training section. You will see what I mean.

If you are into all the knife fighting stuff and the martial arts that make use of this that's great, enjoy yourself and buy the appropriate knive for it. You will be doing us all a favor by supporting knife makers. Just don't expect to be in military combat and do this fancy stuff.

Just for the record I have done two tours in the Balkans as a squad leader and have already been to the "sandbox" for Operation Enduring Freedom. But me saying it here doesn't make it so.


I will try to make my point clearly once again. The primary use of a knife by a grunt is utility work. While a knife can and will be used as a weapon in combat it is not the most preferred weapon. And if you do have to use a knife as a weapon in military combat there will be nothing fancy about it.

Now lets let this thing die. We have all made our points and can all agree on one thing......We Love Knives. Nuff Said.

Nick

P.S. I apologize to the Camillus folks and my fellow foumites for taking up so much space on a matter having little or nothing to do with Camillus knives.
 
Nick, I see now what your talkin about and agree with ya.
No they didnt use a fancy grip like the movies.

As far as Antonio Banderas my uncle and father would just look at me and say who in the hell is that I dont remember him in any John Wayne movies:D

Also I would like to say Thank you.......And im sure you know what I mean,something I say to all military men and women who have served and who are still in the fight.
 
Question for nick681


Have you had a chance to see and use the Becker BK7 ?

If so, how would you rate it, in particular against the Busse #7 ??

Regards
 
Thanks Sky, you beat me to it. We seem to have similar thoughts about other folks as well... ;)

Nick681 certainly brings up valid points. Most folks in the military will never use their knife as a weapon. Some of the Special Operations folks, however, will do that on multiple occasions. So it depends. There was a great thread in the HI forum describing how a Special Operations soldier used a khukuri to take a couple of the Taliban folks out of a fight. IIRC, it was a close quarters fight and a weapon jammed, necessitating some quick action. As usual, the khukuri won. It wasn't anything fancy, just chopping, but it made for a very interesting read, in case anyone is interested.
 
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