Joke

There is a story of a young man who went to college. He returned home very sad. His father asked him what was bothering him.

He replied, "While I was in college I learned the art of Debate, point and counter-point. Using these techiques I realized that I could prove God exists. I can also just as easily prove that God does not exist. So I lost my Faith."

His father asked him if he could prove anything exists or does not exist.

"Of course," replied the son.

"Can you prove that your own nose does not exist?"

"Of course!" with that the son went into a lengthy series of arguments ending with, "and that proves I have no nose."

The father reached out suddenly and grabbed the son's nose, twsiting hard. The son jumped back yelling. The father calmly said, "What hurts?"

The point to me is that when we reach the end of all our logic, all our STUFF, without God, something still hurts.
 
Very true - some things are beyond logic. (Including huge chunks of math, ironically). Unfortunately, that renders it a bit hard to figure out which direction is up - or who is twisting your nose. Maybe that's what life is for. A whole lot of chances to learn things the hard way.
 
DannyinJapan said:
...What if he started talking about human evolution? Would it have been ok for a marine to stick a banana up his butt?
Click to expand...

He'd just be demonstrating that the strongest survive and do what they want. It could actually be seen as supporting the professor's position.
 
When I was in college we had a political science professor get fired. He was, IMHO, an ass. A full-blown communist who lost no opportunity going into any amount of detail to explain why communism was much superior to our Democratic system and how idiotic the American system is when compared to the USSR. This was in the 1960s.

There were times that I felt like knocking him off his platform. But I didn't.

He was fired for "medical reasons." One of the Deans noticed that when the prof had his required medical exam, that he did not give a urine specimen.

The staff told him that he MUST complete this medical exam. He replied, "I am not P**sing in a bottle for you!"

In a relatively short period of time he was gone. Good!
 
There are many things that make a nation strong, and education is central to this.

I am arguing that education does more to strengthen a country than guns and bombs.
The soviet union had lots of guns, bombs, and tanks but failed. They failed because they devoted too much of their science to tools of war, and their educational system was a shambles. They were so devoted to their ideology, that they didn't let their faculty and teachers have access to the internet.

We are now walking down the same path. We cut education funding every year, and expect our schools to do better with less.

I don't buy the argument about how we are throwing too much money at education. How many company executives, doctors and lawyers would give up their pay to work for the salaries that our elementary ed teachers get? For that matter, our pay for our soldiers, policemen, and firefighters needs to get public support. This won't happen in the atmosphere where you have to keep cutting taxes.

We may win wars in the field, but if we don't keep our educational system sound, then we will lose in the long run.
We are not producing scientists. They are coming from overseas. Soon, we will be like a third world country.

I confess - I teach college.

I keep my own political views out of the classroom, and try to teach students how to reconcile their own beliefs with science.
We are becoming an educational disaster. New federal guidelines are dumbing down teaching under the name of accountability.
If we want good educatioon, we need to attract good teachers and pay them good salaries.
I know the joke is just a joke. But- it reflects a general negative view of our educational system. If we don't value education, then why expect our kids to?
There are faculty members at my school whom I depise. They hide behind freedom of speech to say outrageous things - they hope to P....ss off everyone.
That said, I contribute to organizations that support our freedoms.
 
Arty, point well made and taken.

My biggest hangup with the educational system in this country is the lack of discipline at all levels. Teachers hands are tied and kids get away with murder......literally. It's a very sad situation. How to turn it around, I don't know, but until teachers can enforce rules and parents stop bailing out their lazy, undisciplined kids things will continue to get worse. My mother-in-law was so frustrated her last years of teaching because she could not use any workable method to discipline her 1st and 2nd graders. Did those kids get better....no. And did she have to pass those who didn't deserve it....yes....and what good did it do?? They work their way through the system and can't read when they graduate 12 years later. She quit teaching. My friend here is quitting teaching after this year for the same reasons. I'm saddened by this very big problem in this country. I think you are correct in assessing that we will be a 3rd world country soon if things don't turn around. Pumping money into the situation will not help until the discipline situation is corrected. It'll just buy more Maalox for the teachers who have to put up with it. (but I do agree that teachers are underpayed for what they put up with....some of them anyway.....others need to go empty bedpans because they are lousy teachers.....but that's in every field of work, too.) Just my thoughts for today. Always open to correction and insight from all my friends here.
 
We do need to pay teachers enough to keep them in the business, and it sure doesn't help when there are assaults of teachers - and the kids get to walk.
I don't understand how we keep people in teaching, when their lives are at risk in the classroom.

I am not sure about a complete solution, but there are some things that we can do to improve the system.
We do need to pay teachers enough to attract good teachers, and fire the bad ones.
I think that there is too much parental power and political intervention in the schools. Too many schools exist to satisfy parental organizations, and this is bad for the parents and for the kids. If parents have too much control, then teachers can't push the kids to learn and fail them when they should fail. If everyone passes, then everyone suffers.

Not everyone can be above average.

I understand why parents are frustrated, since I hated the primary and secondary educational system in NC. When my daughter was in elementary school, she had teachers who couldn't write or speak grammatically. The teacher qualifying tests were dumbed down, and everyone passed and could become a teacher. It got to the point where teachers did not have to take certifying exams at all, and everyone could get a job teaching.

Now, funding cuts for education are a real problem. There are no jobs in many places for teachers, and discipline is a real issue in our schools. In just about every college, the students with the highest grade point averages are majors in education. It sure isn't because the education students are smarter than the majors in math, physics and chemistry.
The problem now is that we don't have many majors in math, physics (what is that?) or chemistry.
 
Amazing- we've never spent more on education, and never had as low as scores or productivity, yet the cry goes out for more money. (That isn't quite true- I believe our scores took a brief small hike upwards during the last few years, but I could be wrong.)

Money is not the problem.

When society is caving in all around, don't expect the school systems to reflect otherwise.

If you really want to spend more money on education, cut bureacratic costs. There is no excuse for 'administration' to use more funds than is paid for teachers salaries.

You might consider actually teaching something. You know- those hard facts that hurt special interest groups tender feelings? Oh, but I forgot, the powerful education unions control this, and don't want testing or criteria thresholds for funds. They're against school vouchers or anythingelse that might introduce health into the system. Like all bureacracies, they simply want more money, and get a chorus of sympathy from many around them.
The Soviet Union went bankrupt because communisim cannot compete in a competitive marketplace. The moribund educational community should take note of this, but they won't- they have all of you crying for them!!!


munk
 
I am not complaining about mine, but teacher salaries are lousy over much of the country.
States are all spending LESS on higher education, and passing the costs on the parents of kids in schools. College tuition is soaring.
I guess that the families can now own the cost of higher education for their kids.
At the levels of grade school and high school, money is the problem. ... money for teacher salaries.
Teachers may make good money in places like New York City, but it is combat pay.
Over much of the country, you can make much more by going into industry than by teachingIt. Just name the field, and tell me where you make as much money in education.
The budget crunch is so tight in Illinois, that jobs are impossible for teachers to get, anywhere south of Chicago. Teacher salaries stink. You can quote all the figures that you like, but teachers are not getting paid as well as they should. The money is not going into teacher salaries.
This drives the good teachers out of teaching.
 
Ten years ago the highest paid state workers in Ca were in the LA administration of Public Education. Nationally, public schools had 40 some odd percent of it's 'revenue' to teachers salaries, while private schools paid over 80 percent.

Until you trim the bureacracy of fat, pumping more money into education will not result in higher teachers salaries. You must remove the parasites first.

But the education establishment has resisted standardized testing and school vouchers. They don't want competition, they want money.

The public pays more for education than ever before, and test scores are lower.

My comments are primarily directed towards 'lower education', the first 12 grades. I have no idea how to keep college costs down.

munk
 
Schools have always used standardized testing. The change is that the new tests are so dumbed down as to lower the quality of education.
This is what No-Child left Behind act has done.
The effect of the new federally mandated testing is to test 10 year olds on addition and subtraction - first grade stuff. The new standardized tests are a farce.

All schools used to use standardized tests. The "educational establishment" loves standardized tests, and they always have.

Now, the federal government has imposed tests that do not include "extraneous" subjects like social studies, history, you name it. The schools are being forced to take history out of the curriculum. It is a budget crunch and a brand new federal educational establishment that is doing this.

I am not kidding about the dumbing down of the tests. Just talk to the parents of kids who are exposed to the new tests. The penalties attached to schools that can not "measure up" forces schools to lower the quality of the curriculum to match the tests. The long-term effect will be to teach our high school kids elementary education. We are now testing fifth graders on first grade math. This does not improve education.

Vouchers will draw money out of public education, and will not help it.
It is like taking money out of social security to say that you are helping it.
We are living in 1984 - but in 2005. It is double-speak.

You can make the argument that using vouchers is Ok, since parents of kids in religious or private schools pay taxes too. They just don't get the benefits.
However, a voucher system will do nothing to help the salaries of teachers in public schools. That is the real problem. If you paid doctors what elementary teachers get, you wouldn't have any doctors.

Talking about some general vague increase in the amount of money spent on education does not eliminate the salary problem for teachers. We spend much more on other stuff, like taking care of poor old and sick people. Just because these things cost a lot does not mean that we should not take care of our poor sick elderly population. We should. The army costs a lot, but I am not going to suggest that we should lower the salaries of our soldiers. I think that anyone who goes off to fight for us deserves much better than we give them! If a soldier gives up his life or leg for us, he should get the best medical care that we can provide, no matter what it costs. We should pay our soldiers much more than we do right now. Too many families are suffering economic hardships because of the low salaries of our soldiers.

I am just suggesting that it is hard to keep good people in eduation with the low salaries that they are paid. I am not interested in helping administrators (they get paid too much already), but the teachers deserve a decent wage. If we want to have a good educational system, we have to pay what it costs to hire good teachers. Lots of them leave each year, because of poor pay and poor working conditions.

I can't believe that I am arguing for states rights against the imposition of the federal government.
 
Every idea for reform you are against except more money for bloated public education bureacracies. If the tests are a farce, it is because standards were objected to by the democratic party and special interest groups.



I am beginning to think all teachers who vote the democratic ticket deserve the salary they get.

You cannot pump more money into education as it stands now. It will not change teachers salaries by very much.
Let's see; we both agree teachers aren't paid enough. The only idea I've heard in 20 years to change that you're against. School vouchers would introduce an intrinsic reward for good stewardship of monies- competitive schools may be those who trim bueracratic costs. But your'e against it.
You are protecting a status quo I as a tax payer have no desire to support.
The majority of teachers vote democratic. You get what you pay for.
If Vouchers did not work- OH Well- at least we tried something other than pour money down a cess pool-something we can always return to, btw.

The Democratic party today is about as corrupt as any system I've beheld in my lifetime. That includes organized crime. You are the status quo. I will not support you.


munk
 
Calling something reform, does not make it an improvement. The new education law was not passed by the Democratic minority. It was pushed by Republicans.

Incidentally, I am going to vote against the Democratic Governor of Illinois in the next election. I'll vote for a good Republican against a bad Democrat. I don't think that someone is good for education, just because the person calls himself a Democrat. Illinois has cut money for higher education every year for the past 5 years. Our elementary and secondary education funding has gone up, but not enough to cover increased costs.

Calling something an educational reform, does not improve education either. If we walk away from supporting education, our kids will get the shaft. The issue is not a Democratic or Republican issue, it is the future of our children that is at stake.

Pary labels do not apply. Both parties are doing damage to public education right now.

Our public education system is in a crisis, and talking in terms of generalities or parties won't solve the problem.

It is our new Federal Education Dept. that is setting standards, and they are doing a terrible job of it. They happen to be Republicans, but that is not why I am concerned about the law.
Saying that Democrats did it does not do justice to the idea that we currently have to reduce educational standards under the new federal law. That was not the intent of the law, but that is how it is playing out.

Our federal government is a govenment of fools. There are Democratic fools and Republican fools in DC - and they are all damaging education. Our gov't is planning to cut funding for medical research, and that is not good for any of us.

I don't have to like it. We will all pay for this in the future.
 
Arty, the Democrats do not have a single good idea for SS or Education. They are the party of entrenched bureacracy. A far cry from the Party of my youth- they were indeed for real reform and change in the 60's. Now, they are for increased taxes as a solution for everything.

No, calling something 'reform' does not make it so. That's why we try new things in hope. We can always return to the bottomless money pit we have now.

The current Democratic party is corrupt and moribund. It forces me to be a Republican, so bad is it.


More money, more money, the cry goes out. More money, more money. We got it, Arty, we got it. If only you had a new idea instead, one that doesn't involve raising taxes. There is no earthy reason to support the education establishment. As you say- they aren't paying for teachers.


munk
 
Munk said:
"If only you had a new idea instead, one that doesn't involve raising taxes."

I wasn't suggesting that I ran anything, nor did I suggest raising taxes. We have a federal government that decides how to spend our taxes. They spend our money on bailing out large companies that steal pensions from old people.
We have the biggest spenders in history running our government right now.
Our tax money is going to pay for private security firms to guard our military bases. We give lots of money to other countries.
I would rather see us spend more of our tax money on Americans, rather than overseas.
I just happen to care more about our Citizens than people who hate us half way around the world.
Our tax money is used for all sorts of stuff... some of it useful and some of it very wasteful. I happen to think that it would be well spent on education and teacher salaries. The Federal education department could easily force state education departments to do that - if they wanted to.
I am just a citizen who would like to see some money spent on important things, like education, police, homeland security and fire.
 
Arty, none of that has anything to do with the question you posed; more money for teachers. We are actually agreed upon that; the difference is I know pouring more money into the large parasitic education establishment will not particularly raise teachers salaries.

I also know we spend more money on education and have less to show for it than ever before.

Your solution is simply more money. That won't work. You are against school vouchers because of your FEAR of what it might do; not what it has or could do. We can always go back to pouring cash down the COW we do now. We won't try new things- that effectively defines you as the status quo.


munk
 
I studied physics first. Got my Bachelor's in that. My first Master's degree was in education. I've seen the college curricula in both hard sciences and education. I must say, at least during my studies in the 80's, the education curricula sucked.

I taught high school. I didn't go into it for the money. I didn't leave it because of money. I did see the bloated administrative budgets that Munk speaks of.

I left because I was transferred part time to a Jr. High, and I had an imbecillic administrator who did not believe I should give homework, verbally insisted (but refused to put in writing) I produce a normalised grade distribution to her specs even if the students didn't perform, and wanted and attempted to "coach" me down to her pathetic standards.

The problems in our schools are cultural. I'm talking about the culture of the educators.

I think vouchers would bring a competitive element to our public schools that they currently lack. I wholeheartedly support them. We have too many non-productive educator-parasites suckling at the public teat.

I spent a number of years home-schooling my own children.
 
I don't agree on the voucher business, because it would take money out of public education - right when it is needed.
Education is costly. Private schools are not necessarily better than public ones.

I went to public schools and got a fine education. The public college that I attended was high quality when I went to it, but I am not sure that it still is.

I think that Wallace is right in his comment on the culture of education. We have come to a point where everyone has to pass and everyone has to be above average. Past attempts at accountability have been to lower the bar for everyone.

The educational "establishment" is now in the hands ot the majority party in DC, and they have a chance to really push up standards....if they choose to. The education dept. is the educational establishment.

I hope that they succeed in improving education, and we should hold them responsible if they don't.

The education problem is even broader than the "culture" of education that Wallace referred to. It is there, and lowers the bar for everyone. But we do not value science and learning in our society, and don't reward it. Wallace is a rare breed. We don't have many majors in physics anymore, and our scientists are coming from abroad. They get their degrees and leave when done to go back to countries overseas. If this continues, we are going to be in real trouble down the road... and the problems are coming fast.

The last 2 cars that I bought were a Toyota and Honda. I had to decide whether or not to buy American. I always bought American cars until the Toyota (a 2001), but I just got tired of repair costs. I had so many problems with Chevys that I gave up on them. You get tired of replacing the fuel pump after the 4th time. You haven't lived until your brakes die while you are driving at 60 and the car only has 35,000 miles on it. The tanny went out on my Windstar after 82,000 miles.

All of the clothing in my closet was made overseas. My Rockports came from China. My DVD player came from Indonesia. My computer is a Mac, but the components were made overseas. The mouse is made in Malaysia, and so is the Zip drive.

It takes advanced science and technology - including scientists and engineers - to develop and produce quality products. I can recall when tools from Japan were considered junk, and I wouldn't have considered a Toyota.... No longer.
We are losing our technological edge, and it will require a major effort to reverse this.

Some of this is attitudinal and cultural (perhaps too much), but we can't outsource our science and education without paying a very high price in the future. When I call up Microsoft with a problem, I'd like to talk to someone in North Carolina, rather than India.
 
Your assumption is that our Government owes us back our money, through inefficient and inept programs. Why is it the Goverments responsibility to care for you? Can't you work? These programs cost money... our money..... and the big deal is that most Government programs don't work efficiently or effectively. Because I care about people, I say, we could use less Government in our lives, not more!
Thanks,
iBear
 
arty said:
Munk said:
"If only you had a new idea instead, one that doesn't involve raising taxes."

I wasn't suggesting that I ran anything, nor did I suggest raising taxes. We have a federal government that decides how to spend our taxes. They spend our money on bailing out large companies that steal pensions from old people.

THOSE PROGRAMS COST BIG MONEY! OUR MONEY!
We have the biggest spenders in history running our government right now.
Our tax money is going to pay for private security firms to guard our military bases. We give lots of money to other countries.
I would rather see us spend more of our tax money on Americans, rather than overseas.

I just happen to care more about our Citizens than people who hate us half way around the world. You are confused! Spending our money on ineffective Government Programs, does not equate to caring about people.

Our tax money is used for all sorts of stuff... some of it useful and some of it very wasteful. I happen to think that it would be well spent on education and teacher salaries. The Federal education department could easily force state education departments to do that - if they wanted to.

I am just a citizen who would like to see some money spent on important things, like education, police, homeland security and fire.
Click to expand...

Your assumption is that our Government owes us back our money, through inefficient and inept programs. Why is it the Goverments responsibility to care for you? Can't you work?

These programs cost money... our own money..... and the big deal is that most Government programs don't work efficiently or effectively. Because I care about people, I say, we could use less Government in our lives, not more! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Thanks,
iBear
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top