Just finished my first knife, but can't get it sharp

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May 20, 2017
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I just made my first knife. Stock removal from 1084 and heat treated at home. I was really happy with how it turned out until I tried to sharpen it.

After several hours messing with it, I'm ready to pull out my hair here.

It's a convex grind, so I can't use my sharpmaker, which is what I would normally use.

I can put some kind of edge on it with the belt sander, but can't get it sharp. I've been trying with sandpaper and a mouse pad, but I can't get it sharp enough to cut paper.

Ugh!
 
Are you buffing or stropping afterwards to remove the "Burr"?
 
How thick was the edge before you began to sharpen it? If it was really thick it may take you a while to get an edge on it. If that's the case, you may have to thin it out to make it a better cutter.
 
How thick was the edge before you began to sharpen it? If it was really thick it may take you a while to get an edge on it. If that's the case, you may have to thin it out to make it a better cutter.

It was thicker than I thought, if that makes sense. and I've tried to thin it out a little. But it's just frustrating that I can't seem to get any sort of edge on it.

I don't really have any experience trying to sharpen a convex grind, so I'm used to using stones.

I started with 220 grit sandpaper and worked up, but even when I feel like I'm getting an edge, it's gone by the next grit.
 
when you are sharpening, you should feel a burr on one side with your fingernail before you switch to the other side.
 
I say its your technique. Keep consistent angles.
Working on a soft mousepad surface, You have to be cautious not to apply too much pressure.
When I use sandpaper, its normally over a hard flat surface such as masonite or formica on plywood.

Btw, Hardness has really little to do with sharp.
Mild steel can become razor sharp.
Just the instant it touches something, It wont stay sharp...
 
If the HT was right and there are no other issues:

Many new makers that try to convex an edge have it far too thick. This will make an edge that won't seem to get sharp.

The way I do a convex is take the bevels down to a moderately thick edge first. Something around .040". Then I convex on the slack belt until I get it to make an edge. where many go wrong is quitting there. Once I have the convex made to a zero edge, I take the blade to the stones and put on the secondary. It does not need to be very large, but it is important, because it is the actual cutting edge. On most knives this edge is around 25° inclusive. You should be able to use your sharpmaker to put this edge on.
 
If the HT was right and there are no other issues:

Many new makers that try to convex an edge have it far too thick. This will make an edge that won't seem to get sharp.

I think you're exactly right. I'll go back and try to put on a secondary edge the way you described and see how that goes.

Oh, and I did try and take a picture...

32349.jpg
 
The edge in the photo looks far too fat. I put an edge like yours on a axe. If you can see that line above the edge, it is too fat/thick and too convex. The bevel should curve continuously from a flat to the edge when done right.

A convex edge is more properly thought of as a convex bevel ... it is a curve to the edge, but the bevel still has to be fully tapered before you do the convex curve.

I would regrind your knife's bevels far thinner toward the edge and then convex to zero. After adding a small secondary, I bet it is a lot sharper.

I'll try and explain it in words, but seeing one in your hand makes it clearer:
The blade should start out as an FFG right down to the edge. The edge is left a bit thicker than normal, around .030-.040", depending on blade size and use.
Then the blade is convexed to the edge until the edge is sharp. The convexing can be done on the slack belt where it will happen pretty much automatically, or on stones by sharpening with a rocking motion. The convex is worked well back up the bevel, not only at the edge where it would leave a grind line that shows.

Once done, the cross section of the blade will start flat and end in a slight curve toward the edge. You control the degree of convex by raising the spine higher or down to just barely touching. The edge will have more arc (raise spine higher) if it will be doing hard chopping (like a camp knife), and less arc if extreme sharpness is desired (like a wakizashi). What the convex edge does is put a little more "meat" behind the edge compared to a FFG, to make a stronger edge. On slicers ( Yanagi-ba, etc.) this is virtually as sharp as a normal FFG, but more durable. On camp choppers and knives that will be abused, it helps keep the edge from chipping out so bad. On high sharpness blades, the convex to zero is then polished on a felt board with rouge, and it is done. In others that are more rugged, a tiny micro-bevel is added on a stone or with an edge sharpening system like the Sharp maker, edge-pro, or Lansky.


The technique of slack grinding is best done on the belt with a 3 to 6"contact wheel. It is done on the 1-2" section just before the belt meets the wheel.
I use Rob Frink's rotary platen ( Beaumont) for the job because that is the task it does best. It forms the convex as I shape the bevels.
Alternately, you can use a platen padded with graphite backing. This will give a slight convex to the blade. You need to "break in" the graphite so it wears away in the middle giving some curve to it. The best way to do that is to use the platen for hogging and profiling for a while. It will quickly dip in toward the middle. At this point it becomes a convexing platen.

To do it on the belt grinder, just place the bevel on the belt as if you were trying to grind the flat. The edge will grind in a curve. If you left the blade flat on the belt, the spine would also have a bit of a curve toward it, so you need to slightly life the spine off the belt. About 1/4" to 1/2" is right. This will make the belt remove metal along the edge in a very shallow arc.
On stones, the blade is placed flat on the far end of the stone, with the spine toward you. Lift the spine just off the surface and then as you draw back lift it higher until you get to the desired edge angle. On most knives that means starting out at flat and raising the spine about 1/2". When both sides are done with that amount of lift, the edge will be the convergence of the two bevel arcs, forming a convex angle of about 25-30° ( if it was a FFG to zero, it would be about 20°). This will make a good sharp edge. Lifting the blade spine .75" will make a 35-40° convex edge for rough use blades (equivalent to a 30° FFG).
Adding a micro-bevel at any desired angle will make the blade keener if a lower angle is used, or tougher if the micro-bevel is higher.
 
Try using a Sharpie along the edge to see where your sandpaper is touching

This is a great tip. Sharpening is simply removing metal from each bevel side until both sides meet at the cutting edge at a consistent and thin apex (it can be thick behind the edge, but the actual apex under magnification will be thin). Using a sharpie lets you visualize for sure whether or not you are removing metal to the very edge. Feeling for a burr all along the edge is just a good quick way too know you've removed enough metal to get to the edge to form a burr that bends over.

Using a mousepad and sandpaper can work with good technique, but you can also round off the edge and make it dull. The same issue can occur with stropping on a soft leather strop. I prefer to do like Stacy recommended: use the belt to grind to zero (or almost to zero) then put on the secondary with diamond plates or sharpening stones.

I tried to find a good pic online but instead drew this quickly instead of working on my own knives out of laziness. LOL! Note that I did not draw the bevels as convex to keep it simple (and out of laziness).

7jqZegOl.jpg



To me, sharpening is in general discussed with too much voodoo-i-do-this and not enough explanation of the hows and whys, kind of similar to some discussions about heat treating. Once you understand how and why, then however you do it yourself will be sound regardless of small differences in what tools you use or your technique.
 
Very good drawings. If the edge is convex, there will be no angle between the edge and the main bevel ... it will just curve down to the edge.
 
Don't concentrate too much in getting a convex edge...you don't need an axe
Try instead sharpening for a 25°-30° included angle edge...then a little stropping on a denim belt with some cream or paste polish will do all the convexity you'll need.
 
That really helps, I'll go back and grind it a little thinner and then put on an edge

Thanks, and I'll let you know how it goes!
 
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