Just for fits and giggles !

[JMAN86]

Yeah a busse can take down a tree or two but several trees?

Why wouldn't a Busse be able to take down several trees? Does the blade get dull on a Busse faster than an axe or something? Not every tree in Alaska is 2 feet thick anyway. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see how skinning game and doing small carving/camp chores is easy on an axe. It's gotta be a pain.

Chopping down a tree is faster (saving time and energy) but what other advantage does an axe have?

 

[killa_concept]

I would go with a 35 inch haft double headed GFB throwing axe . . .

I haven't had any experience with a double bit axe, but I could certainly see the practicality in this scenario. Aside from your mentioned usage, you can keep one side sharpened to a fine, razor's edge for finer tasks and the other a bit more stout for heavy chopping :thumbup:

From my experience though, a flat poll is pretty handy for pounding tasks (wooden stakes and wedges), so it would still be a compromise for me.

To the people that chose an axe . . .

Once you establish a proper edge geometry, I don't see how an axe would be any harder to sharpen than a large chopper... In fact, you're generally dealing with a lower HRC so removing metal could in some instances be easier.

As for the question of finer tasks, I'm honestly wondering what sort of "finer" tasks you guys think you'll be needing to do in this sort of situation. Do you guys seriously think you'll find yourself needing to do any detailed carving? At best, I could see myself making some notches for a trap and that's easily doable with an axe.

As for skinning, like I said before, the chances of taking down large game without a rifle is very, very slim. Things the size of rabbits and under (what you'll be able to catch with a trap) can be skinned by cutting a small incision and ripping the fur right off.

On a lighter note, yes you can carve and skin a game with an axe. That 19" wetterlings you picked up is going to serve you well - great compromise between chopping tool and controlled usage. I have a Gransfors Bruks in the same size in the mail as well Properly sharpened, it's quite easy to shape out a basic spoon or ladle with that size of axe and then burn out the depression with a coal. If you want some extra reassurance, check out this video of Ray Mears making a canoe paddle (using primarily a 19" GB): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vAG6-JjYxs

Versatile as a 19" axe is though, I still think a 26" is the minimum I would want to take on such a scenario simply because chopping power would be more vital than versatility.

This kind of boggles my mind actually. The scenario is ALASKA in the middle of WINTER. . .

My point exactly! I don't think people here are quite grasping the severity of the scenario. We're talking -30C or colder, before windchill! The last time I was up in BC during winter, I went out with my dad to chop down a christmas tree. It was about -20C without factoring in windchill. I brought along an 18" HI kukri and decided to go after some standing, bug-killed pines about 6-7" in diameter. I managed to down two before becoming rather exhausted and the third was a clumsy ordeal that resorted in trying to use the kukri two-handed. I stopped myself after a few two handed blows when I realized how unsafe the situation had become.

I'm no marathon runner, but I'm by no means unfit either. Relying on a very small set of muscle groups, and having to accelerate the blade rather than allowing leverage, weight and gravity to do the work is going to cause exhaustion. Exhaustion is going to cause hyperventilation which leads to breathing in more cold air which leads to even further exhaustion.

Why wouldn't a Busse be able to take down several trees? . . .

Refer to my previous posts as well as this one. To compare the chopping capabilities of a long bladed knife to a fair sized axe goes against physics and obvious body dynamics. Will a large Busse be able to down a few 4-5" trees for your fire before you get exhausted in that sort of climate? Yes, but is that going to be enough? Probably not. And after a few sessions of doing it, the small number of muscle groups you're using for those one armed chops are going to get awfully sore. Compare this to a 3/4 or full axe, where you're using a LOT more muscle groups and two arms, as well as the advantage of leverage/weight/gravity (vs you being the main source of acceleration with a blade) and you're accomplishing more with less effort.

When your survival depends almost solely on keeping a fire well fed with large sized logs, it would seriously be foolish to think a large blade will be enough.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I would love to see someone cut enough wood with any knife to stay warm in a sub arctic forest. Especially when most of the wood is frozen as well as hard as a rock.

Give me an axe for warmth and shelter and I'll muddle thru skinning and carving.

 

[go2ndAmend]

Gb sfa

 

[sambo.]

probably a Fallkniven S1.

 

[Fletcher Knives]

My question would be what food prep and what camp chores? Assuming you're in alaskan wilderness in the middle of winter, with little kit and no rifle to hunt with, you have little else you can do but create a shelter (equally doable with an axe or large blade), conserve energy, keep yourself warm with a fire (easier to gather firewood with an axe), and wait for rescue. Sucky sounding yeah, but I'm just being realistic given the scenario...

I'm glad you asked. Alaska is a big place, even bigger in the middle of winter. The chances of me being rescued on the first, third, tenth, or 110th day are going to depend on a lot of factors. I'm not planning to build a shelter, build a fire, and wait. Depending on the location, time of day, and weather, I'm planning to:

(This is all of course after I assess the situation and make up my mind to stay where I am)

Build a decent shelter or go ahead and start my fire. Hopefully, the location and weather permitting, I would build a decent shelter first. If I'm in the right location, most of the structure could be assembled without the knife.

Then, get a fire going.

Then, I'd go ahead and figure out how to start my water gathering. I'd want to be able to sit down every once in a while and just chill out for a minute and sip some warm water to keep my core temp up and keep from from over-working myself.

Next, I'd start gathering a ton of firewood. Since I have a big chopper knife instead of an axe, whatever I could get and the most I could get. I can feel it already, people saying, "well you'll have a tough time without an axe with all that chopping and sectioning, etc." The truth is, I learned a looooong time ago that if you have a fire going, sectioning is now a non-issue. There are actually a few different fire configurations that are specifically designed just for that. Knowing how to build more than just the traditional wood structure for a fire is VERY useful. You should know which piles are best for which application, not just that basic fire structure you learn for your campfire or fireplace. Also, since the Hatchula and Hatchula II are designed with the right holes for creating other tools, such as a decent hatchet with nothing other than a stick and a shoelace or cordage, I could at least make it a little easier by turning it into a small axe by adding a haft and some reach.

My guess is that by this time, it would be time for some sleep.

Get up the next day and start improving the shelter. The idea is to get the shelter to a point where it retains enough heat with minimal fire.

At this point, regardless of how long I'm going to be in the Alaskan wilderness, I want some food. If I have a headache, nausea, and just generally feel like crap, I can't get enough done anyway. I know that there are a ton of survival experts out there that say food is a low priority in the beginning. Well, I may be wrong, but that doesn't stop me from disagreeing. I firmly believe that taking a portion of the day to aquire food will make me feel a whole lot better and help me perform well in the beginning. I'll look for anything I can find, plants I know are safe, dead animals, live animals, set some traps, whatever. Even if I can just find some trees or something that I know have inner bark I can gnaw on, that's still better than nothing. Like I said, might be wrong for other people, but it's right for me. I undertand that it's burning energy, but I also burn energy sitting still and sleeping. I'd like to think that I was at least trying to replenish some of it.

Then I get to gathering more firewood. By this time, I should have my fire going good enough that I can use it to help a lot more.

At this point, hopefully I would be comfortable enough to start projects, anything to keep me occupied when not gathering firewood. I'd make as many traps as I could, make little utnecils, figure out if there was any kind of tool or structure I could make that would benefit me where I was. This is when it would really start to come in more handy to have a big knife instead of an axe for me. As far as I'm concerned, no matter how long I'm going to be stuck, camp chores like little projects and making traps, hell even just doing some small crafty project to keep me occupied, and getting something to eat are all very important. Even if I'm just trying to get something to eat, that still makes me feel better than just hunkering down, sitting there, and hoping someone will find me. Screw that noise.

Also, I don't get all these comments about accidents and tool breakage - it's just as likely to happen with an axe OR a large blade. Regardless what tool you go with, you obviously need to be well versed in safe handling... I guess that sort of goes hand in hand with taking what you're comfortable with though.

I'm not concerned at all with tool breakage, but I am with accidents. Axes are large and heavy instruments that are designed to be out of balance. That's how they work. It's true that you can use them to do basic cutting chores, and for the more experienced, even hard technique chores. However, the fact remains that it is a heavy instrument and has to be held in, what is for me, an awkward position to do fine cutting. The Hatchula and Hatchula II are designed to be very well balanced. They can do fine chores just as well as chopping and the grinds are done in a way that they cut just like a smaller bushcraft knife. I know some people say, "well an axe with the right edge is just as sharp." That's true, but we're still left with the same truth, which is, when it comes to me, I can use a knife like a knife, and an axe like an axe, but neither like the other with a good amount of skill. The chances of me cutting myself with my knife are much smaller than if I'm trying to use an axe like a knife, simply because I don't have the skill.

Here's the last thing I'm going to add. The chances of me having only an axe or a knife when I head out are pretty slim. If the situation arises where I'm stuck in a situation with only one edged tool because all others have been lost, I doubt I'll have a choice which I get to keep. However, if I do have a choice, due to MY PARTICULAR STYLE of dealing with the situation, I want my Hatchula or Hatchula II. I'm not saying I want any big chopper knife. I'm saying I want one of the two that I specifically designed for camp chores, chopping, and food preperation.


Edit: Truth be told, I have absolutely no idea how it would go down in real life. This is all how I would like it to happen. .....or I'd like to die quickly and not suffer too much.

 

[killa_concept]

I'm glad you asked. . .

I completely agree with your point about keeping your mind occupied in a survival situation. Just because I said hunker down and wait for rescue, doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything at all. Working on projects helps take your mind off your situation and promotes a more optimistic attitude. Whittling and such is easier with a knife, but it's not impossible with an axe.

Also, a lot of this situation is about location. Now Alaska is a big place, and it really depends where you are in it to figure out what would be most suitable for your situation. But if the temperature is any lower than -25C, I really wouldn't want to be without an axe even if it means compromising the ability to do certain smaller chores.

And no, you don't have to section out wood after felling it. Dragging the whole thing to camp and and burning logs in half will save you a lot of energy. Also, various techniques are certainly going to come in handy (a reflector will be a MUST).

However, if I do have a choice, due to MY PARTICULAR STYLE of dealing with the situation...

I agree with you there. A tool you're well versed with is going to be a lot more handy than an unfamiliar one, regardless of which is more suited to the scenario...

Edit: Truth be told, I have absolutely no idea how it would go down in real life. This is all how I would like it to happen. .....or I'd like to die quickly and not suffer too much.

That's the fun of these scenario threads though. I've never lived out in incredibly cold, exposed wilderness for an extended period of time and I don't believe anyone posting here has either. I have however, been out in -20C (or colder) treks with chilling winds on multiple occasions and HAVE tried using large blades and full-fledged axes in such conditions (which I'm sure a number of people here CAN'T claim to have done as their opinions, I guarantee, would be different).

In my experience during winter-time up in BC, chopping dead/frozen-solid pines:
Using an 18" kukri, I was only able to down two 6" trees before getting truly exhausted and somewhat sore in my arm/shoulder. With a 28(?)" felling axe with a less-than-optimal edge, I've been able to knock down six or so trees of the same size in one session and while slightly winded afterward, wasn't completely exhausted or sore. And keep in mind that a kukri, by design, is a stronger chopper than most other big blades... In a survival situation where your life depends on gathering a good deal of firewood without exhaustion, I really don't see the practicality of a knife over an axe.

 

[Erasmus]

I'd take my Gransfors Bruks Small Foret Axe. Yes, I've chopped up small game with it. You just choke up on the handle to slice with it. It easily sharpens on the Triangle Sharpmaker, too.

I believe that Ray Mears in one of his vids mentioned that if you have only one edged tool in a Northern Wilderness type setting, then it should be an axe. Looks like he uses the SFA, too.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I would go with a 35 inch haft double headed GFB throwing axe .... you can sink one head into a tree or stump and use the other head as a fixed cutting edge .... and for camp chores and small game .... you can work the game around the blade ..... much better than trying to hold a single edged head ..... and the 35 inch haft chops really well.... very able to built a cabin and supply firewood for a month ....

This.

Alaska.
Winter.

Fire and shelter are paramount.
Peter already mentioned how to get around the maneuverability issues. In fact, I'd use one edge for wood tasks and keep the other for "softer" tasks.

Pit said you'd have other kit -- possibly a canteen kit, billy can, whatever. The limit was ONE TOOL. Goiven that, carving spoons and bowls isn't on my "have to" list.

Getting fire, then shelter and getting them FAST is what it's about. Even a 3/4 axe is too small, IMO. I want a two-handed tool that I can cut all the wood I need for shelter and fire as fast as possible. I work around the problems of the large tool later. IF I get a large animal to eat, I can take time to butcher it via the axe. That doesn't have to be done quickly. As another mentioned, you can use the axe to make a bone knife if you have to. He said you could only bring one tool, he didn't say you couldn't make more.

As far as prying and digging -- what are you going to pry? I don't think you'll be doing much digging in mid winter, either. Nor pounding stakes. If you need to pound something, use the baton the frozen dead guy with the knife in his hands made.

 

[adaman04]

Hmmm, ESEE-5, 6 or Junglas.

 

[Shotgun]

If you need to pound something, use the baton the frozen dead guy with the knife in his hands made.

Ah snap! Bwahahaha!


Scenarios are fun but let's face it, most of us would probably die in that scenario anyhow. Taking someone from the lower 48 that may have visited alaska a couple of times is like taking a fish out of water. I don't think there's much people can do to prepare for this type of situation except to actually train IN the situation.

 

[killa_concept]

Alaska.
Winter.
. . .

My sentiments exactly. Finer tasks and the versatility of a blade are not as paramount as keeping your arse warm. A 3/4th or full fledged axe is paramount (I prefer the former as at ~5'4 and 110lbs, I find a 26" handle suits me better). I guess you have a point on the advantages of a double-bit outweighing a single in this scenario - I simply haven't had any experience with one so I couldn't say it would be my choice.

 

[tidefan]

Staying put, full size axe. Traveling, 3/4 axe.

yep...

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Scenarios are fun but let's face it, most of us would probably die in that scenario anyhow. Taking someone from the lower 48 that may have visited alaska a couple of times is like taking a fish out of water. I don't think there's much people can do to prepare for this type of situation except to actually train IN the situation.

I'm 99.9% sure I'd starve to death.

I grew up in some cold, really cold, weather, and learned to survive. Plenty of fuel for keeping warm, plenty of raw materials for good shelter. Alaska in winter -- there's water laying all over the ground. But I have no idea WTF to even look for to eat that time of year.

 

[idaho]

I'm 99.9% sure I'd starve to death.

I grew up in some cold, really cold, weather, and learned to survive. Plenty of fuel for keeping warm, plenty of raw materials for good shelter. Alaska in winter -- there's water laying all over the ground. But I have no idea WTF to even look for to eat that time of year.

Hunting LARGE animals would be a key to winter survival. Unfortunatly most of use don't have crucial skills to do it without guns.

 

[Don'tkillbill]

SFA here as well and hope I could stay alive on pine needle tea, lichens and the inner bark of a few trees sitting my my big assed fire until the plane flew over. I'd like a can or metal cup so I don't have to try a birch bark cup.

I'd love a bit of para cord for my shelter and a survival bow (very makable with a mid sized axe). I'm sure a few squirrles or porcupines will laugh at me but it'll keep my mind buys

 

[fugawee]

a month in alaska
biggest threat will be exposure.
gonna need lotta wood for fire and shelter.
Axe all the way.

 

[dialton]

Always an interesting, never ending, never settled, fun scenario. Axe for me. If I couldn't become proficient enough in this time frame using it heavily on a daily basis, then I never would. Shelter and fire first. I am a knife nut but even a large chopper would not give me the ability to secure ample amounts of firewood for a 30 day stay. Now you just might be thinking that I have said enuf and anything further is pretty much off the main question......Well, I might be able to build a shelter and a fire but then I am likely gonna starve to death slowly (positive attitude or not). In my humble opinion: 30 days with no food and your body using all that fuel to keep warm is a sure death sentence. Each day with no food is going to get increasingly tougher quickly. Before too long you probably wont have enough energy left to gather/chop the wood you need to keep warm and it's all downhill from there. I suspect not too many folks in my neighborhood have the skills to survive in that environment when they are dropped in with no supplies and insufficient tools or the extreme skills that I would think would be required in full Winter in Alaska to get something to eat.
P.S. For those of you who chose to go into this with a small knife, I suspect your sentence there would be much shorter in duration cause you are gonna freeze to death in short order. Just sayin...... : ))

 

[Duzzy]

I think some people are forgetting that it will probably be pretty dark most of the time. That being the case I think I'd want a saw. Assuming I'm understanding all the circumstances correctly (one edged tool, freezing cold, and dark) I think this scenario is more a game of prolonging death than anything else.

 

[Bumppo]

Chinese Army entrenching tool. Maybe upgrade the handle. Sorry, I don't know how to link.