Just How Much Do Premium Steels Cost?

O

oXObsidianXo

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So I've been wondering this for a while when looking at some makers websites and the variation in pricing just for different steels. Example; Medford Knife and Tool charges $100 more in order to have your Praetorian T/Ti blade in either S35VN or 3V vs the no additional charge for D2. So my question is, do premium or even supersteels cost that much more to purchase? For instance, if I wanted to buy one square foot of D2 3/16th of an inch thick how much would that cost vs one square foot of S30V/35VN 3/16th thick? Or does the increased cost come with the difficulty to machine?
 
You can look at a steel supplier and compare. Its not a secret;)

Steel can cost more, more difficult to heat treat, harder to grind, less availability. All these can account to increased prices.
 
I charge the same price for 440C, CPM-S35VN, or AEB-L. The difference in material cost is not very much. There is no justification for $100 upcharge.

Bob
 
jobasha11 said:
You can look at a steel supplier and compare. Its not a secret;)

Steel can cost more, more difficult to heat treat, harder to grind, less availability. All these can account to increased prices.
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I guess I haven't tried hard enough, but I have been unable to find such a website. Any chance you could post a link? Unless that violates forum rules.
 
The old adage in knife making is that "cost of steel is a tiny portion of the equation." The modern caveat is "until you start buying PM steel." :D Even "simple" steels can vary widely in price. I give the example of some tough mother steels that people use a lot for tools used to beat on stuff. Flat stock 4140 can be had for about 1/3 the price as flat stock L6. Part of that is because 4140 is so widely used and available. L6 not so much. When you get into the high end specialty stuff, Katie bar the door!!! Let say you wanted a 10 x 2 x 3/16 piece for a full tang knife. A piece of good Bohler D2/K110 would run you no more than $18. CPM S110V? Closer to $60. Simple high quality plain carbon steel custom smelted for knife makers like 1084? Maybe $7.
 
jdm61 said:
The old adage in knife making is that "cost of steel is a tiny portion of the equation." The modern caveat is "until you start buying PM steel." :D Even "simple" steels can vary widely in price. I give the example of some tough mother steels that people use a lot for tools used to beat on stuff. Flat stock 4140 can be had for about 1/3 the price as flat stock L6. Part of that is because 4140 is so widely used and available. L6 not so much. When you get into the high end specialty stuff, Katie bar the door!!! Let say you wanted a 10 x 2 x 3/16 piece for a full tang knife. A piece of good Bohler D2/K110 would run you no more than $18. CPM S110V? Closer to $60. Simple high quality plain carbon steel custom smelted for knife makers like 1084? Maybe $7.
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well put steel cost is one thing HT is another as is belts and time per same style blade. now what about fail factor. you mess up and loose all your time what is the replacement worth ( remember its more the jsut the steel and its more then just the time since you are now behind and have already quoted a cost )

added fail facor %
you cant bet on never failing as a maker (we all have our bucket ) and you cant charge 75% fail ether ut much like ins. you got to cover your rear end
 
Not all makers do the same work in the same length of time, and certainly if a maker is recognized for doing very good work then his prices will be higher.
Frank
 
Steel cost is only a small part. I excepted an order of s110v at a super high premium and I'm still reluctant to do it. The time, belts, tooling and HT all play a part. I haven't worked with s110v before and I don't even know if my bandsaw blades will cut it. As Butch mentioned, scrapping work is something we all have to do time to time and the more you have invested in that work the harder it is to overcome financially.

I just did a final fitting of a finished blade yesterday. All that was left was a detent, lockface and sharpening. I wanted to make the blade close a little more and took off about .02" too much and now it's scrap. As bad as it is if it happened on s110v I would be throwing things.

Mark
 
Medford knives seems to be a shop that makes designs that work with the machinery they intend them to make them with. In my opinion very blocky designs and grooves cut with ball end mills. I think they are investing is some very high end machinery but to me they look unrefined based on the possibilities that are there with the cnc equipment. I think they are the type of shop that will charge you for anything and everything and the higher price is somehow supposed to be interpreted as simply better. Just my thoughts. Greg also is quite proud that he pays his people very well so that means that you will likely be paying more.
 
I know of at least one established maker who only uses a certain steel for all his knives. He's streamlined his production, doesn't take orders, and uses one steel exclusively in order to expedite the HT process. If the maker has a routine down that makes him money efficiently, to step outside the routine costs extra time. Time is money. While it may not cost 50% more to make a blade out of steel XYZ, if all the other blades are made of 123, it seems reasonable to me that the maker might charge 50% more for the XYZ knife just for the cost of fooling with it. If you ask me to make a knife I don't want to make at my regular pricing, maybe I'll quote you 25% higher, for the inconvenience of making something I don't want to make.

I've argued that an upcharge isn't unreasonable.... that said, the others have covered pretty well that the upcharge isn't for the "cost of the steel."
 
All the salient points have been covered. Like most other things in this business, choosing steel and setting prices isn't nearly as easy at it looks at first glance.

Jason Fry said:
I know of at least one established maker who only uses a certain steel for all his knives. He's streamlined his production, doesn't take orders, and uses one steel exclusively in order to expedite the HT process.
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I can think of a few that fit that description, and they seem to be pretty successful with it. That's something I'm working towards as well. Trying out lots of different alloys is fun and can teach you a lot. But cranking out 1 or even 6 customs in a "new" steel can be a big hassle and really grind away at your margins. People often don't realize that it can cost as much to HT one blade as 25... so doing one or two blades in a steel that requires a different protocol can actually mean you're working for free, compared to running a couple dozen in a steel you're already familiar with and trust.

Not many individual makers and small companies can afford to have that kind of money being tied up in small runs. Even bigger companies like Ka-Bar and Spyderco have a difficult time being profitable with "sprint runs" and so on.

If you're going to get serious, at some point I think you have to pick out 1-3 really good steels and learn them inside and out, for various reasons.

Not the least of which is name-recognition... when you say D2 everybody automatically thinks of Dozier...W2? Hanson. 52100? Fowler. 3V? Hossom. etc etc.
 
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One other thing is that perhaps the maker sends out for HT. If they typically do a single steel, they can get ht for about 5 bucks each on a big batch. I think it is 25 or so for a single blade. Add in the extra time of finishing a "super steel" and the cost of keeping inventory of several different alloys in different sizes and 100 may not be too crazy.
 
Yup, that's what I was getting at John. I send my blades to Peters', so it just doesn't make much sense to do less than a half-dozen at a time in the same alloy/same hardness. More is better. "Economy of scale", I think they call it.

Even if you HT your own blades a couple at a time, running a kiln at 1950F for an hour costs more than running it at 1575F for 15 minutes...

The upshot is, there are a lot of "hidden" costs that may not sound like much for one knife, but at the end of the month it might add up to making the difference between the maker eating Ramen noodles for a solid week or having a nice ham sandwich now and then... much less a steak on Saturday night. ;)
 
Hidden costs like foil and if you use sub zero quench then you have the dry ice and acetone as part of the heat treat..Or LN if you go that way..One of the biggest costs I think can be finishing those high wear steels..they just laugh at most belts and even the good belts that cut don't last long..Most people would gasp if they had to pay $9+ for ONE grinding belt..
 
Don't forget the Tylenol and bourbon if you're crazy enough to try to hand-sand those "super steels"... :D
 
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