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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Just in.......Benchmade Monochrome
- Thread starter Cosmic Superchunk
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2001
- Messages
- 3,709
Post removed. Sorry guys, I let my emotions get the best of me.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
Edited to remove uncalled for remarks
Back to the important subject:
How are the thumbstuds on the Monochrome? Does their positioning make the knife easier or harder to open? I like how they look unobtrusive for sharpening purposes.
edited to add
Thanks, Blop and Knifenerd, for your support.
Back to the important subject:
How are the thumbstuds on the Monochrome? Does their positioning make the knife easier or harder to open? I like how they look unobtrusive for sharpening purposes.
edited to add
Thanks, Blop and Knifenerd, for your support.
stjames
Sebenzanista
- Joined
- Oct 26, 1998
- Messages
- 6,465
Why do you fellows resort to sarcasm and name calling instead of intelligent discussion? Cosmic, you are the one who compared the knife to the EDC, and I feel my position is very reasonable; why buy a foreign made product when an American made equivalent is so readily available. And is anyone disappointed in Benchmade abandoning their position as an American Made cutlery company a troll, Thom, or just the ones willing to bring it up in polite company? Up until one minute ago I thought thats what you were, but I see that if someone disagrees with you (or your favorite manufacturer) that thin veil of civility is quickly dropped.
Now if youll excuse me I have a billygoat roasting under my bridge and have to go turn the spit. Enjoy your knives, gentlemen.
Now if youll excuse me I have a billygoat roasting under my bridge and have to go turn the spit. Enjoy your knives, gentlemen.
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,256
Thom,
You owe James an apology. James has been around this board forever, and I have never seen him stir up trouble for trouble's sake. That comment was definitely uncalled for...
James - I can't say that I agree with you totally, but I thank you for sharing your perspective. This board would be too boring if only "me too" replies were allowed....
Matthew
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2001
- Messages
- 3,709
StJames, I apologize for the sarcasm and name calling. It really was uncalled for.
Gents, we all can't agree on everything, but at least we can discuss what we enjoy most. Knives.
Gents, we all can't agree on everything, but at least we can discuss what we enjoy most. Knives.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2001
- Messages
- 3,709
Thom, the thumbstuds are positioned for easy opening and don't interfere with cutting or sharpening.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
James,
Over at Benchmade's company-owned forum, I was just as critical of the whole "Buy American to Keep Jobs In America" sentiments there. In this thread, after many folks weren't buying what you were selling, you brought up the "Buy American" twice more.
With regards to the Camillus EDC, that's insulting to the product. I don't care where Darrell Ralph is from or where Camillus, NY is. That knife has a recurve for increased cutting power, increased cutting area, and for looks. It has a palm swell for increased safety. It is available in a wider array of steels and finishes than the Monochrome. You can find it at New Graham for $43.75 (which, with shipping, is close to the 10 bucks more you quoted). That knife has so much going for it that it's a disservice buy it over the Monochrome out of a sense of duty.
The other thing about "Buy American" is this statement you made:
I love my job. It's challenging, rewarding work and it pays the bills. The downside is that my job relies on me selling my services to my employer. The company I work for is my customer even though I'm hired to increase the value of their goods and services for their customers and investors (I'm one of their investor's, too, so part of my paycheck pays me company to hire me). The company I work for only owes me that which we have agreed upon in our contract. If the company didn't sign on the dotted line, they wouldn't owe me anything. I am entitled to nothing. In order to keep my contract, I have a vested interest in making my skills more valueable than those of my buddies over in India (this may not last. While not every India-based tech is smarter or more innovative than every American tech, a lot are smarter than me).
That's the same for everyone in free and semi-free countries the world over. Workers only have jobs when they have customers willing to hire them. We're all owed only that which we are able to collectively or individually obtain through contracts with our customers, be they companies or individuals. It sucks when we can't keep the well from running dry. It's painful and depressing to pick up the pieces (in my community, several folks lost jobs in the computer industry and the defense industry), but no one's entitled to having a customer pay for their goods and services if that customer doesn't want to buy from them. That's not freedom of contract between consenting individuals and that's why "Buy American" is not supportive of American ideals and values.
Sam Walton worked his tail off for years to make what would eventually become an employer of millions of Americans and an analyst-defying investment oppurtunity for those same people and many others. There are tons of Wal-Mart Millionaires. He loved buying American made goods when they met his level of expectations and he even had a soft-spot for them, too, but he never bought out of a sense of charity. The people who shop in his stores, work in his stores, and invest in his stores are richer for it, too. He never used his American citizenship as a claim upon your income or anyone else's.
A really horrible blow to American retirement investments was the Anti-Trust case against Microsoft. The lawsuit said that, beyond a certain point, Microsoft was forbidden from making contracts with other parties to the agreement, and with the consent, of all involved parties. That lawsuit sent a powerful message against achievement for American companies. America's anti-trust laws limit the levels to which companies may rise as providers of goods and services and that limits the amount of workers whose labor they'd hire. Going after the repealment of such mean-spirited, fascistic laws would generate or regenerate a lot more jobs in America than buying one masterfully designed and executed framelock (CUDA EDC) over another (Benchmade Monochrome) ever would.
Matthew,
James' dissenting comments on this thread were not about the design shortcomings of the Monochrome (which Cosmic Superchunk listed in his review and Mr. Bible agreed with) or the functional superiority of the CUDA EDC (both knives have their strong points, as does everything). They were about his belief that the CUDA EDC should be bought soley on the grounds that it was made in a certain country. Most of the people on this thread saw the country of origin (especially for two countries with relatively free markets) as being inconsequential. When James saw that his argument was not persuasive, he made this karmic threat:
Matthew, James went into this thread to promote "Buy American" collectivism and the only strike against the Monochrome that he mentioned was the country where it was made. His dismissal of Taiwan's relatively free economy and Mr. DeAsis' use of the profit motive (which, along with the rationality that inspires the profit motive, is the driving force in the world's continuously improving standard of living. And America benefits first when an American pursues the profit motive), which is gloriously American, seemed a tad over the top since his displeasure of the Monochrome's Taiwanese construction was already noted.
Point one was taken and disagreed with, so point two came off as either stirring up sympathy for point one or deliberate rabble-rousing. When point two was originally printed, I took it as James simply trying to convince more people that non-American products shouldn't be bought due to their not being made by Americans. I didn't agree, but I kept quiet at that time. When James started saying that the price of buying a Monochrome would be losing our jobs to our Formosan friends, well, yes, I did call him a troll and use sarcasm in doing so. James' zeal to keep the topic of this thread away from the structural merits and issues of the Monochrome and steer it into a Buy American collectivist pity party appeared trollish to me.
Of all of the dissenting points he could have made about the Monochrome, he chose that one topic and offered bad consequences should we offend his sense of righteousness. I don't think he originally stirred up trouble for trouble's sake, but he eventually did.
Over at Benchmade's company-owned forum, I was just as critical of the whole "Buy American to Keep Jobs In America" sentiments there. In this thread, after many folks weren't buying what you were selling, you brought up the "Buy American" twice more.
With regards to the Camillus EDC, that's insulting to the product. I don't care where Darrell Ralph is from or where Camillus, NY is. That knife has a recurve for increased cutting power, increased cutting area, and for looks. It has a palm swell for increased safety. It is available in a wider array of steels and finishes than the Monochrome. You can find it at New Graham for $43.75 (which, with shipping, is close to the 10 bucks more you quoted). That knife has so much going for it that it's a disservice buy it over the Monochrome out of a sense of duty.
The other thing about "Buy American" is this statement you made:
I love my job. It's challenging, rewarding work and it pays the bills. The downside is that my job relies on me selling my services to my employer. The company I work for is my customer even though I'm hired to increase the value of their goods and services for their customers and investors (I'm one of their investor's, too, so part of my paycheck pays me company to hire me). The company I work for only owes me that which we have agreed upon in our contract. If the company didn't sign on the dotted line, they wouldn't owe me anything. I am entitled to nothing. In order to keep my contract, I have a vested interest in making my skills more valueable than those of my buddies over in India (this may not last. While not every India-based tech is smarter or more innovative than every American tech, a lot are smarter than me).
That's the same for everyone in free and semi-free countries the world over. Workers only have jobs when they have customers willing to hire them. We're all owed only that which we are able to collectively or individually obtain through contracts with our customers, be they companies or individuals. It sucks when we can't keep the well from running dry. It's painful and depressing to pick up the pieces (in my community, several folks lost jobs in the computer industry and the defense industry), but no one's entitled to having a customer pay for their goods and services if that customer doesn't want to buy from them. That's not freedom of contract between consenting individuals and that's why "Buy American" is not supportive of American ideals and values.
Sam Walton worked his tail off for years to make what would eventually become an employer of millions of Americans and an analyst-defying investment oppurtunity for those same people and many others. There are tons of Wal-Mart Millionaires. He loved buying American made goods when they met his level of expectations and he even had a soft-spot for them, too, but he never bought out of a sense of charity. The people who shop in his stores, work in his stores, and invest in his stores are richer for it, too. He never used his American citizenship as a claim upon your income or anyone else's.
A really horrible blow to American retirement investments was the Anti-Trust case against Microsoft. The lawsuit said that, beyond a certain point, Microsoft was forbidden from making contracts with other parties to the agreement, and with the consent, of all involved parties. That lawsuit sent a powerful message against achievement for American companies. America's anti-trust laws limit the levels to which companies may rise as providers of goods and services and that limits the amount of workers whose labor they'd hire. Going after the repealment of such mean-spirited, fascistic laws would generate or regenerate a lot more jobs in America than buying one masterfully designed and executed framelock (CUDA EDC) over another (Benchmade Monochrome) ever would.
Matthew,
James' dissenting comments on this thread were not about the design shortcomings of the Monochrome (which Cosmic Superchunk listed in his review and Mr. Bible agreed with) or the functional superiority of the CUDA EDC (both knives have their strong points, as does everything). They were about his belief that the CUDA EDC should be bought soley on the grounds that it was made in a certain country. Most of the people on this thread saw the country of origin (especially for two countries with relatively free markets) as being inconsequential. When James saw that his argument was not persuasive, he made this karmic threat:
Matthew, James went into this thread to promote "Buy American" collectivism and the only strike against the Monochrome that he mentioned was the country where it was made. His dismissal of Taiwan's relatively free economy and Mr. DeAsis' use of the profit motive (which, along with the rationality that inspires the profit motive, is the driving force in the world's continuously improving standard of living. And America benefits first when an American pursues the profit motive), which is gloriously American, seemed a tad over the top since his displeasure of the Monochrome's Taiwanese construction was already noted.
Point one was taken and disagreed with, so point two came off as either stirring up sympathy for point one or deliberate rabble-rousing. When point two was originally printed, I took it as James simply trying to convince more people that non-American products shouldn't be bought due to their not being made by Americans. I didn't agree, but I kept quiet at that time. When James started saying that the price of buying a Monochrome would be losing our jobs to our Formosan friends, well, yes, I did call him a troll and use sarcasm in doing so. James' zeal to keep the topic of this thread away from the structural merits and issues of the Monochrome and steer it into a Buy American collectivist pity party appeared trollish to me.
Of all of the dissenting points he could have made about the Monochrome, he chose that one topic and offered bad consequences should we offend his sense of righteousness. I don't think he originally stirred up trouble for trouble's sake, but he eventually did.
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,256
Thom -
My definition of a troll is a newcomer to the boards who has no interest in participating here other than to offer up a few controversial opinions and then sit back and watch the flames.
James' statements, while impassioned, do not fit the definition of trollish behavior - he stuck around for the ensuing debate. And nowhere did I see James slander the character of any of the participants on this thread - which is why I still think you owe James an apology.
By the way, your last response was well-written and food for thought. Thanks for sharing. I am not firmly on either side of the debate, but I do appreciate hearing the opinions of others on this topic.
Matthew
stjames
Sebenzanista
- Joined
- Oct 26, 1998
- Messages
- 6,465
CS, thank you, and I apologize for your thread being blown totally off course. I do appreciate your taking the time and effort to do a thorough and well thought out review of the knife, and I hope you will let us know how it continues to perform.
Thom, thanks for bringing up all the good points of the Camillus EDC, but to insinuate that I was insulting toward the maker and product for not taking that tack myself is ridiculous. Every time I posted in this thread it was in direct response to a comment that another user had made, and I can note my displeasure in as many different ways as I see fit in order to get my point across. It is called intelligent debate. You disagree with my position; instead of taking the time last night to present your case you tossed an insult my way; bad form. This morning you have presented a more well thought out response, but it is just damage control for your reputation.
You think a products country of origin shouldnt be a factor in the buying decision; I think that if it were a factor for more people in this country our economy would be better off. I dont want to see more Wal-Mart Millionaires, Id prefer to see a strong and thriving middle class where anyone willing to work hard at an honest job has a chance of making a better life for themselves and their children.
Im sure you are not through with this discussion, but out of respect for Cosmic Superchunk Im through with having it in this thread.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,677
Wow. You guys are really impressive!
Civil in the face of differences of opinion. Humble and apologetic when perceived lines are possibly crossed. Focused and deep thinking in the differences of some values, all of which are understandable.
I'm proud to have had the oppoortunity to observe such discussion.
The governments of the world could probably learn something from your style.
sal
Civil in the face of differences of opinion. Humble and apologetic when perceived lines are possibly crossed. Focused and deep thinking in the differences of some values, all of which are understandable.
I'm proud to have had the oppoortunity to observe such discussion.
The governments of the world could probably learn something from your style.
sal
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
Cosmic Superchunk,
Thanks for letting me know about how the thumbstuds work in real life. The pictures give an idea, but not the real story.
DJ_Wolf,
The handles are made out of 420J2. During their online conference for the new product lines, Les told the audience that the handles were J2 and most of us thought he meant the blade. I wonder how monitors and keyboards got ruined as coffee was spit out in disbelief/disgust before it was announced that the blade was N690.
Matthew,
That's a distinction I had failed to make. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
James,
It is through the lifelong work of those who became millionaires working at, and investing in, companies like Wal-Mart and Microsoft that allow a middle class to grow and prosper. There's no reason why this country can't become a nation of millionaires and a snooty trillionaire upper-class.
It puzzles and upsets me that you see your own rephrasings to be discussion, but have decided to dismiss mine as "damage control" for my reputation. What I have said to you, and Starfish is helping me see that the insult I labeled you with is unfit, do not damage my standing as a person who fairly and honestly trades with others.
Sal,
I hope you were parenthetically omitting me from your praise. I've gotten a little too hot under the collar.
Thanks for letting me know about how the thumbstuds work in real life. The pictures give an idea, but not the real story.
DJ_Wolf,
The handles are made out of 420J2. During their online conference for the new product lines, Les told the audience that the handles were J2 and most of us thought he meant the blade. I wonder how monitors and keyboards got ruined as coffee was spit out in disbelief/disgust before it was announced that the blade was N690.
Matthew,
That's a distinction I had failed to make. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
James,
It is through the lifelong work of those who became millionaires working at, and investing in, companies like Wal-Mart and Microsoft that allow a middle class to grow and prosper. There's no reason why this country can't become a nation of millionaires and a snooty trillionaire upper-class.
It puzzles and upsets me that you see your own rephrasings to be discussion, but have decided to dismiss mine as "damage control" for my reputation. What I have said to you, and Starfish is helping me see that the insult I labeled you with is unfit, do not damage my standing as a person who fairly and honestly trades with others.
Sal,
I hope you were parenthetically omitting me from your praise. I've gotten a little too hot under the collar.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,677
Thom, getting hot is not a problem, as long as the discussion is civil. Disagreement keeps out boredom. Everyone here seems to be in control, even in "hot" disagreement. That's what I am enjoying.
Different points of view is ok. No "right" or "wrong". All good, just different. But, the respect is maintained and the discussion is civil.
sal
Different points of view is ok. No "right" or "wrong". All good, just different. But, the respect is maintained and the discussion is civil.
sal
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
James,
I apologize for responding with sarcasm and calling you names instead of disagreeing like a gentleman.
Cosmic Superchunk,
How's the edge-holding on the Monochrome? How does it compare to the 530S or Ambush?
I apologize for responding with sarcasm and calling you names instead of disagreeing like a gentleman.
Cosmic Superchunk,
How's the edge-holding on the Monochrome? How does it compare to the 530S or Ambush?
It's getting really difficult in today's gloablized economy to determine what makes one product "American" and another not. In the January/February issue of AAA World (you know, the roadside assistance organization) there was a great article on this very topic.
The question was offered, "In an era of multinational corporations and global economic, is there any such thing as an American car?" Some interesting observations:
Chrysler PT Cruiser - "The PT Cruiser is not built in the U.S. by well-paid workers but in Mexico by relatively low-wage labor, and then imported into this country. And Chrysler, one of Detroit's so-called Big Three automakers, was bought out in 1998 by Daimler-Benz, makers of Mercedes-Benz. Add all that up and it could be argued that the PT Cruiser is more German or Mexican than American."
The Chrysler Crossfire - An American company and an American made car, right? "Despite its Chrysler badge, the Crossfire is built in Germany by DaimlerChrysler, a German company. The car's engine, suspension, and brakes are from Merceded-Benz. American workers don't earn money from its production, nor or the profits controlled by an American company."
Toyota Solara - gotta be a foreign car, right? "Depends. Developed in large part by Toyota's U.S.-based technical center and U.S.-based design studio, the Solara is built in the U.S. using components mostly made in the U.S. Profits are controlled by a Japanese company but Americans earn money from its production."
"Fords are built in Mexico and Canada and Toyotas and Hondas are built, respectively, in Kentucky and Ohio."
"Last year Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors imported components worth close to $20 billion in accumulated value from Mexico. The Big Three American automakers have more foreign made parts than the vehicles built by foreign automakers in U.S.-based assembly plants."
And it goes on and on and on...
I'll stick to my Cannondale road bike that I know is made in America. Ooops, that's just the frame. The components are from Shimano in Japan:grumpy:
Get's confusing doesn't it?
Art
The question was offered, "In an era of multinational corporations and global economic, is there any such thing as an American car?" Some interesting observations:
Chrysler PT Cruiser - "The PT Cruiser is not built in the U.S. by well-paid workers but in Mexico by relatively low-wage labor, and then imported into this country. And Chrysler, one of Detroit's so-called Big Three automakers, was bought out in 1998 by Daimler-Benz, makers of Mercedes-Benz. Add all that up and it could be argued that the PT Cruiser is more German or Mexican than American."
The Chrysler Crossfire - An American company and an American made car, right? "Despite its Chrysler badge, the Crossfire is built in Germany by DaimlerChrysler, a German company. The car's engine, suspension, and brakes are from Merceded-Benz. American workers don't earn money from its production, nor or the profits controlled by an American company."
Toyota Solara - gotta be a foreign car, right? "Depends. Developed in large part by Toyota's U.S.-based technical center and U.S.-based design studio, the Solara is built in the U.S. using components mostly made in the U.S. Profits are controlled by a Japanese company but Americans earn money from its production."
"Fords are built in Mexico and Canada and Toyotas and Hondas are built, respectively, in Kentucky and Ohio."
"Last year Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors imported components worth close to $20 billion in accumulated value from Mexico. The Big Three American automakers have more foreign made parts than the vehicles built by foreign automakers in U.S.-based assembly plants."
And it goes on and on and on...
I'll stick to my Cannondale road bike that I know is made in America. Ooops, that's just the frame. The components are from Shimano in Japan:grumpy:
Get's confusing doesn't it?
Art