just purchased a survive knives gso 4.1 in s90v steel

[Buffalohump]

My outdoor knife is Scott Gossman UFK in S90V. I ordered it in that steel because I prefer stainless steels and S90V holds a wicked ass edge! Also, S90V is not that common so I figured why not? I don't do much batoning around camp, my knife gets used mostly for normal cutting. In truth I could probably get away with a folder but hey, any excuse for a new knife, right? If I want to chop wood I use either my Gransfors SFA or, if its not too thick, my new toy - an 8 inch golok, also from Gossman.



The Golok!

 

[Polamalu]

i have a phil wilson collab with Spyderco (the south fork), it uses s90v and after using it for a while i agree with Goodeyesniper.the knife itself does not serve as my primary camp knife, I use it only for food prepping.

I reseached that knife as well and I found out that it's blade geomentry is not for hard use as Phil Wilson said himself

 

[PB Wilson]

seems like a really strange steel to use in this application. it's very expensive and its main strength is abrasion resistance in a way which doesn't come into play as much with the woodsy, dirty work. and the trade off is greatly reduced edged stability, which is something you would want for the way this knife is marketed...

Strange mix of features, IMO.

Is it truly "greatly reduced?" I suppose if you compared it with 3V...

I personally wouldn't hammer it into a tree and rappel down a cliff using it as the anchor, but for reasonable use, I doubt it would fail anyone. With the Congress stones mentioned above or diamond, you'll be fine maintaining it.

I'm really waiting for the smaller Survive Knife that is supposedly in the works. I wonder what steel he will offer for that one.

 

[Polamalu]

My outdoor knife is Scott Gossman UFK in S90V. I ordered it in that steel because I prefer stainless steels and S90V holds a wicked ass edge! Also, S90V is not that common so I figured why not? I don't do much batoning around camp, my knife gets used mostly for normal cutting. In truth I could probably get away with a folder but hey, any excuse for a new knife, right? If I want to chop wood I use either my Gransfors SFA or, if its not too thick, my new toy - an 8 inch golok, also from Gossman.



The Golok!

Nice knife !

 

[Styg]

Is it truly "greatly reduced?" I suppose if you compared it with 3V...

I personally wouldn't hammer it into a tree and rappel down a cliff using it as the anchor, but for reasonable use, I doubt it would fail anyone. With the Congress stones mentioned above or diamond, you'll be fine maintaining it.

I'm really waiting for the smaller Survive Knife that is supposedly in the works. I wonder what steel he will offer for that one.

I'm guessing the American version of M390, Crucible CPM-20CV. His site said they are picking it up for their knives but I'm not sure if this is a limited edition or permanent.

I'm not sure if they are a BF dealer so you're going to have to use your googlefu.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I had considered the s90v when I saw that Guy had a limited run of them, but lacked the funds. I called EW last night just to check, and got the last one they had, and picked an orange handle. To heck with it; I put it on the card. Now gotta sell something. Life is short.

 

[Sonnydaze]

i have a phil wilson collab with Spyderco (the south fork), it uses s90v and after using it for a while i agree with Goodeyesniper.the knife itself does not serve as my primary camp knife, I use it only for food prepping.

I have the Phil Wilson's South Fork by Spyderco, and the blade thickness is 0.118". Phil describes himself as an avid outdoorsman, hunter and fisherman. I think this blade was primarily designed for the "fisherman" part.
It is quite a different blade from Guy's S90V (SurviveKnives) which is similar ONLY in blade-steel. Guy's design is ~1/2 shorter in length, very similar in height at 1.25", BUT nearly 30% thicker (~ 5/32), spec'd at 0.152".
I think that Phil Wilson's design would serve very well as a fisherman's knife primarily, with serious overtones toward shaving sticks and light camp-work. However, Guy's knife is likely not well suited to filleting a striped bass, but probably makes an excellent companion for lighter bushcraft duties. I do NOT know what the heat-treat differences might be.
I have both, but plan to gift the Spyderco to a fishing-fiend son-in-law who will love it, I'm certain.
sonnydaze

 

[Polamalu]

I had considered the s90v when I saw that Guy had a limited run of them, but lacked the funds. I called EW last night just to check, and got the last one they had, and picked an orange handle. To heck with it; I put it on the card. Now gotta sell something. Life is short.

I had the last Camo scales. I can't wait for it to arrive and put it through paces. I'm going to do a review with it wood processing, with the edge geometry and HT I'm hoping it won't fail on me

 

[ceptor781]

I received my S90V 4.1 last week, this knife will handle any task that you would use a 4" blade for.

 

[Polamalu]

I received my S90V 4.1 last week, this knife will handle any task that you would use a 4" blade for.

Can you post photos of it?

 

[ceptor781]

Sure.




For size ref next to a CQC-7V

 

[Polamalu]

Sure.




For size ref next to a CQC-7V

Sweet!!! Thanks for sharing

 

[goodeyesniper]

Is it truly "greatly reduced?" I suppose if you compared it with 3V...

I personally wouldn't hammer it into a tree and rappel down a cliff using it as the anchor, but for reasonable use, I doubt it would fail anyone. With the Congress stones mentioned above or diamond, you'll be fine maintaining it.

I'm really waiting for the smaller Survive Knife that is supposedly in the works. I wonder what steel he will offer for that one.

Yes, it is truly greatly reduced. Not in a way that makes it not usable, just in a way that makes no sense to me for how this knife is built and marketed. The impact resistance and lateral stability of s90v will be even a step down from something like s30v, which is itself a few steps down from your typical 1095, 52100, 13c26 sandvik, etc... Now, the blade will stand up to woodwork and such, but you are using an expensive steel in a way which will NOT highlight its strengths(abrasion resistance), and potentially showing its weaknesses(lack of toughness), all with a MUCH higher price tag. So... what's the point? (besides just collecting super steel knives)

S90v makes sense in Phil Wilson's knives which are aimed towards fishing/hunting, as that huge wear resistance comes into great effect when processing lots of game. As well as having thinner, slicier grinds. Throw it on a big, chunky, overbuilt "survival knife" and you are not seeing that added wear resistance for the extra cost. And when it comes time to sharpen out the edge damage from being used hard and dirty, which will happen with ANY steel, you will take about ten times longer to fix the damage on s90v compared to a carbon steel. So, why pay the premium on a knife like this? That's my main question.

It's like buying a ferrari to commute every day through 45mph speed limits. Yes it will do it just fine, but you will NEVER see its strengths come into play (high speed handling/acceleration), and it will be less reliable and more finicky than a honda civic. And you paid a much higher premium for it.

If you want to commute in a ferrari, more power to you. Just don't try and argue that it makes any kind of sense other than putting a smile on your face

I have the Phil Wilson's South Fork by Spyderco, and the blade thickness is 0.118". Phil describes himself as an avid outdoorsman, hunter and fisherman. I think this blade was primarily designed for the "fisherman" part.
It is quite a different blade from Guy's S90V (SurviveKnives) which is similar ONLY in blade-steel. Guy's design is ~1/2 shorter in length, very similar in height at 1.25", BUT nearly 30% thicker (~ 5/32), spec'd at 0.152".
I think that Phil Wilson's design would serve very well as a fisherman's knife primarily, with serious overtones toward shaving sticks and light camp-work. However, Guy's knife is likely not well suited to filleting a striped bass, but probably makes an excellent companion for lighter bushcraft duties. I do NOT know what the heat-treat differences might be.
I have both, but plan to gift the Spyderco to a fishing-fiend son-in-law who will love it, I'm certain.
sonnydaze

Exactly. Makes sense in Phil's knives. I just don't get marketing a hugely expensive, borderline fragile steel as a "survival" knife. Other than the fact that MOST people buying "survival knives" do it to take pictures of and show online, and having that juicy "s90v" stamping makes it even more attractive to look at in pictures. It just seems to be the case of buying a really nice screwdriver in order to hammer a bunch of nails.

 

[ceptor781]

How many S90V knives do you own in a bushcraft/outdoors whatever pattern and how many of them, if any, failed due to its fragility? I get looking at stat sheets and comparing numbers but really. If this knife in this steel is anywhere near as tough as the M390 version it will stand up to heavy outdoor use just fine without disintegrating and keep a fine cutting edge for a good long while without corrosion issues.

Is it the best tool to fall a tree, no. But it will feather, notch, and split realistic wood for a knife of it's size just fine.

 

[Polamalu]

How many S90V knives do you own in a bushcraft/outdoors whatever pattern and how many of them, if any, failed due to its fragility? I get looking at stat sheets and comparing numbers but really. If this knife in this steel is anywhere near as tough as the M390 version it will stand up to heavy outdoor use just fine without disintegrating and keep a fine cutting edge for a good long while without corrosion issues.

Is it the best tool to fall a tree, no. But it will feather, notch, and split realistic wood for a knife of it's size just fine.

I have an entrek javelina and if you look at entrek badger review on YouTube, it was whaled on with no problems.*It's 440c which has the same toughness as s90v

 

[Brock O Lee]

Yes, it is truly greatly reduced. Not in a way that makes it not usable, just in a way that makes no sense to me for how this knife is built and marketed. The impact resistance and lateral stability of s90v will be even a step down from something like s30v, which is itself a few steps down from your typical 1095, 52100, 13c26 sandvik, etc... Now, the blade will stand up to woodwork and such, but you are using an expensive steel in a way which will NOT highlight its strengths(abrasion resistance), and potentially showing its weaknesses(lack of toughness), all with a MUCH higher price tag. So... what's the point? (besides just collecting super steel knives)

S90v makes sense in Phil Wilson's knives which are aimed towards fishing/hunting, as that huge wear resistance comes into great effect when processing lots of game. As well as having thinner, slicier grinds. Throw it on a big, chunky, overbuilt "survival knife" and you are not seeing that added wear resistance for the extra cost. And when it comes time to sharpen out the edge damage from being used hard and dirty, which will happen with ANY steel, you will take about ten times longer to fix the damage on s90v compared to a carbon steel. So, why pay the premium on a knife like this? That's my main question.

It's like buying a ferrari to commute every day through 45mph speed limits. Yes it will do it just fine, but you will NEVER see its strengths come into play (high speed handling/acceleration), and it will be less reliable and more finicky than a honda civic. And you paid a much higher premium for it.

If you want to commute in a ferrari, more power to you. Just don't try and argue that it makes any kind of sense other than putting a smile on your face



Exactly. Makes sense in Phil's knives. I just don't get marketing a hugely expensive, borderline fragile steel as a "survival" knife. Other than the fact that MOST people buying "survival knives" do it to take pictures of and show online, and having that juicy "s90v" stamping makes it even more attractive to look at in pictures. It just seems to be the case of buying a really nice screwdriver in order to hammer a bunch of nails.

Agree 100% :thumbup:

 

[messer454]

I got one because i liked the design and they only made 60. Cant wait for mine to come in. Hope i like the steel.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Yes, it is truly greatly reduced. Not in a way that makes it not usable, just in a way that makes no sense to me for how this knife is built and marketed. The impact resistance and lateral stability of s90v will be even a step down from something like s30v, which is itself a few steps down from your typical 1095, 52100, 13c26 sandvik, etc... Now, the blade will stand up to woodwork and such, but you are using an expensive steel in a way which will NOT highlight its strengths(abrasion resistance), and potentially showing its weaknesses(lack of toughness), all with a MUCH higher price tag.

S90v makes sense in Phil Wilson's knives which are aimed towards fishing/hunting, as that huge wear resistance comes into great effect when processing lots of game. As well as having thinner, slicier grinds. Throw it on a big, chunky, overbuilt "survival knife" and you are not seeing that added wear resistance for the extra cost. And when it comes time to sharpen out the edge damage from being used hard and dirty, which will happen with ANY steel, you will take about ten times longer to fix the damage on s90v compared to a carbon steel. So, why pay the premium on a knife like this? That's my main question.

... I just don't get marketing a hugely expensive, borderline fragile steel as a "survival" knife ...

I am looking for values on impact toughness for 13C26 or AEB-L but cannot find them. 52100 @ 58Rc is ~40+ J/cm2, 1095 is closer to 20 J/cm2, S90V @ 58Rc is ~26+ J/cm2 but gets higher a few points harder (some suppliers list 27 - 30 J/cm2), S30V @ 58Rc is >35 J/cm2.

So, to be clear, S30V is about even with 52100 and better than 1095 in regard to impact toughness, S90V is below 52100 and a little below S30V but above 1095. HOWEVER all of these steels at this hardness range could be called "fragile" in comparison to S7 or CPM-3V which achieve >100 J/cm2 impact toughness at the same hardness. Advocation of ultra-fine grained AEB-L and 13C26 claims higher edge-stability and impact toughness but where are the data? It makes sense that they'd be tougher given the grain size, but please cite something...? Do they achieve CPM-3V toughness or are they pretty much on level with the aforementioned steels such that little-to-no difference is noticeable in use?

Now, to counter low impact toughness, the design is thicker, right? Well, at 0.03" behind the edge it is pretty-much even with many other knives intended for similar use or less! Comparing this to a 1095 or even 52100 knife of similar geometry, you won't notice a difference in cutting performance and probably won't notice a difference in toughness, but you WILL notice a difference in edge-retention.

Abrasion resistance is certainly S90V's forte, but i disagree that it won't be noticeable in a blade of this design. You can certainly use this knife for game-processing as it is, or just bring the edge-geometry down for even better performance to more severely out-shine the other steels mentioned. In comparison, what advantage does 13C26 offer IF toughness is the same? Those finer grains allow a keener edge, a level hardly noticeable in tasks outside of surgery, and lost on surfaces harder/more abrasive than soft flesh, i.e. irrelevant to this design. Now a thin, dedicated slicer from Phil Wilson will certainly show S90V's strengths more than this design, but those strengths aren't absent here.

In terms of the "MUCH higher price tag" and "hugely expensive", how does this knife at $225 compare to others of similar design (stainless, stone-washed, micarta scales, premium kydex sheath, USA-made)? What brand/maker are you comparing to?

The contention that it will be more challenging to sharpen is most pertinent, I think, though the asserted "ten times longer" seems baseless as any major damage is likely to be fixed with SiC or diamond hones which care no more about S90V's vanadium carbides than about 1095's cementite. With lesser hones and similar levels of degradation, THEN the process may become one of frustration, which is why choosers of these steels are warned, "Don't let it get too dull!"

Anyway, i am really interested in those 13C26 or AEB-L numbers if anyone can find them. My own experience with 14C28N (designed to be 13C26 with higher corrosion resistance) is noticeably lower edge retention than S30V and also M390, closer to Buck's 420HC. That is the only difference I've noticed in everyday use. Does your experience differ?

 

[marthinus]

I am looking for values on impact toughness for 13C26 or AEB-L but cannot find them. 52100 @ 58Rc is ~40+ J/cm2, 1095 is closer to 20 J/cm2, S90V @ 58Rc is ~26+ J/cm2 but gets higher a few points harder (some suppliers list 27 - 30 J/cm2), S30V @ 58Rc is >35 J/cm2.

So, to be clear, S30V is about even with 52100 and better than 1095 in regard to impact toughness, S90V is below 52100 and a little below S30V but above 1095. HOWEVER all of these steels at this hardness range could be called "fragile" in comparison to S7 or CPM-3V which achieve >100 J/cm2 impact toughness at the same hardness. Advocation of ultra-fine grained AEB-L and 13C26 claims higher edge-stability and impact toughness but where are the data? It makes sense that they'd be tougher given the grain size, but please cite something...? Do they achieve CPM-3V toughness or are they pretty much on level with the aforementioned steels such that little-to-no difference is noticeable in use?

Now, to counter low impact toughness, the design is thicker, right? Well, at 0.03" behind the edge it is pretty-much even with many other knives intended for similar use or less! Comparing this to a 1095 or even 52100 knife of similar geometry, you won't notice a difference in cutting performance and probably won't notice a difference in toughness, but you WILL notice a difference in edge-retention.

Abrasion resistance is certainly S90V's forte, but i disagree that it won't be noticeable in a blade of this design. You can certainly use this knife for game-processing as it is, or just bring the edge-geometry down for even better performance to more severely out-shine the other steels mentioned. In comparison, what advantage does 13C26 offer IF toughness is the same? Those finer grains allow a keener edge, a level hardly noticeable in tasks outside of surgery, and lost on surfaces harder/more abrasive than soft flesh, i.e. irrelevant to this design. Now a thin, dedicated slicer from Phil Wilson will certainly show S90V's strengths more than this design, but those strengths aren't absent here.

In terms of the "MUCH higher price tag" and "hugely expensive", how does this knife at $225 compare to others of similar design (stainless, stone-washed, micarta scales, premium kydex sheath, USA-made)? What brand/maker are you comparing to?

The contention that it will be more challenging to sharpen is most pertinent, I think, though the asserted "ten times longer" seems baseless as any major damage is likely to be fixed with SiC or diamond hones which care no more about S90V's vanadium carbides than about 1095's cementite. With lesser hones and similar levels of degradation, THEN the process may become one of frustration, which is why choosers of these steels are warned, "Don't let it get too dull!"

Anyway, i am really interested in those 13C26 or AEB-L numbers if anyone can find them. My own experience with 14C28N (designed to be 13C26 with higher corrosion resistance) is noticeably lower edge retention than S30V and also M390, closer to Buck's 420HC. That is the only difference I've noticed in everyday use. Does your experience differ?

Where do you draw your data from? I ask because for me personally there is just to many conflicting data to determine one final value to steels.

Charpy tests are known to have issues with regards to keeping standard samples from lab to lab etc.

Here is one source:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...rpy-C-Notch-Values?highlight=impact+toughness

another:

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/Knife_steel_impact_toughness.pdf

some testing by sandvik that might help:

http://www.smt.sandvik.com/en/materials-center/material-datasheets/strip-steel/sandvik-chromflex/

Look at the impressive values of CPM-M4 in this test

http://www.zapp.com/fileadmin/downl...blaetter-Werkzeuglegierungen/CPM RexT15_E.pdf

one more:

http://www.zapp.com/fileadmin/downloads/01-Produkte/Datenblaetter-Werkzeuglegierungen/CPM 3V_E.pdf

Some good value arguments: http://www.steeluniversity.org/content/html/eng/default.asp?catid=151&pageid=2081271963

"The objective of Charpy testing is twofold:

To determine the ductile to brittle transition temperature for the steel in question.
To allow comparison between different steel suppliers and to demonstrate that a given process route consistently produces the same level of impact toughness.

The extent of testing therefore normally reflects these different concerns. For the first objective, a graph of Charpy impact energy against the test temperature is needed, and an agreed measure of impact transition temperature is determined from this data. In assessing steel consistency and/or quality against a typical steel specification requirement then tests are usually performed at the test temperature indicated in the steel standard, for example, BS EN 10025 grade S355JO requires that the steel achieve 27 Joules at 0 ºC.

It should be recognized that although the Charpy test is very popular, the notch acuity, some of the temperatures and the strain rate used in the test are not representative of the conditions in which many steels are used. Therefore the results of Charpy impact tests cannot be used directly to predict in-service behavior and failure characteristics, because as stated previously fracture mode depends critically, not only on the properties of the steel, but also on these parameters.

The advantages of the Charpy test is that it is quick and relatively easy to perform. It is a very useful test for assessing the quality of a product and for evaluating new products. However it does have several disadvantages, since the energy to fracture depends critically on the sample geometry, the shape and sharpness of the notch and is very dependent on the strain rate. Many steel structures or components do not contain notches of the type used in Charpy tests or are subjected to the high strain rates experienced in the Charpy test. Thus, it may be misleading to directly apply the results to real industrial applications.

More complex fracture mechanics techniques which distinguish between crack initiation and propagation have been developed for this purpose."

 

[Ankerson]

I am looking for values on impact toughness for 13C26 or AEB-L but cannot find them. 52100 @ 58Rc is ~40+ J/cm2, 1095 is closer to 20 J/cm2, S90V @ 58Rc is ~26+ J/cm2 but gets higher a few points harder (some suppliers list 27 - 30 J/cm2), S30V @ 58Rc is >35 J/cm2.

So, to be clear, S30V is about even with 52100 and better than 1095 in regard to impact toughness, S90V is below 52100 and a little below S30V but above 1095. HOWEVER all of these steels at this hardness range could be called "fragile" in comparison to S7 or CPM-3V which achieve >100 J/cm2 impact toughness at the same hardness. Advocation of ultra-fine grained AEB-L and 13C26 claims higher edge-stability and impact toughness but where are the data? It makes sense that they'd be tougher given the grain size, but please cite something...? Do they achieve CPM-3V toughness or are they pretty much on level with the aforementioned steels such that little-to-no difference is noticeable in use?

Now, to counter low impact toughness, the design is thicker, right? Well, at 0.03" behind the edge it is pretty-much even with many other knives intended for similar use or less! Comparing this to a 1095 or even 52100 knife of similar geometry, you won't notice a difference in cutting performance and probably won't notice a difference in toughness, but you WILL notice a difference in edge-retention.

Abrasion resistance is certainly S90V's forte, but i disagree that it won't be noticeable in a blade of this design. You can certainly use this knife for game-processing as it is, or just bring the edge-geometry down for even better performance to more severely out-shine the other steels mentioned. In comparison, what advantage does 13C26 offer IF toughness is the same? Those finer grains allow a keener edge, a level hardly noticeable in tasks outside of surgery, and lost on surfaces harder/more abrasive than soft flesh, i.e. irrelevant to this design. Now a thin, dedicated slicer from Phil Wilson will certainly show S90V's strengths more than this design, but those strengths aren't absent here.

In terms of the "MUCH higher price tag" and "hugely expensive", how does this knife at $225 compare to others of similar design (stainless, stone-washed, micarta scales, premium kydex sheath, USA-made)? What brand/maker are you comparing to?

The contention that it will be more challenging to sharpen is most pertinent, I think, though the asserted "ten times longer" seems baseless as any major damage is likely to be fixed with SiC or diamond hones which care no more about S90V's vanadium carbides than about 1095's cementite. With lesser hones and similar levels of degradation, THEN the process may become one of frustration, which is why choosers of these steels are warned, "Don't let it get too dull!"

Anyway, i am really interested in those 13C26 or AEB-L numbers if anyone can find them. My own experience with 14C28N (designed to be 13C26 with higher corrosion resistance) is noticeably lower edge retention than S30V and also M390, closer to Buck's 420HC. That is the only difference I've noticed in everyday use. Does your experience differ?

In that knife (GSO 4.1) it won't matter due to the blade and edge geometry, they are around .035" behind the edge at 20 degrees per side one would be able to do any task with the knives in S90V that could be done with M390 or 3V and not have issues.

S90V isn't brittle at all.