Just wanted to say hello!!!

The General

The General

Joined
Jun 6, 2000
Messages
3,625
I am buying a custom knife very soon. It will be my first such purchas.

I am going for a 10" Spearpoint plain edge knife with G10 scales and a nice leather sheath. The steel will be CPM 10V

Well I just wanted to say hello as this is a big jump for me.

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
10" overall or 10" blade? You gonna chop with the 10-V? My experiance although limited makes me think you wont like 10-V in a chopper.

[This message has been edited by Rob Simonich (edited 04-03-2001).]
 
It is 10" blade length and the stock is 1/4 inch. The blade will be used for some chopping but its main function is that of a largeish camp knife. The literature from Crucibel suggests that 10V has better toughness than M2 or D2. I am exstaticly happy with both those steels and thus do not see a problem with the steel. Also the edge will be 20% per side so it aught to be ok. I will use either a Kuhkri or my Gerber Axe for the heavy stuff. I intend for this blade to be a user, but chopping branches and the like is going to be the heavyest tasks it will probably perform.

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
CPM-10V has is main intention being a carbide replacement where you are seeing failure due to fracture. It has a *very* high wear resistance for a steel and has a much greater impact toughness than carbide. However it is critical to note that carbides are *far* more brittle than steels, even the more brittle ones.

I have used a blade out of CPM-10V from Phil Wilson at 62.5 RC and it is tougher than a D2 blade I have at 62 RC. I have seen on numerous occasions the 10V blade resist chipping cutting materials that caused the D2 blade to fracture, and anytime the 10V blade chipped the D2 one always did. However D2 is one of the more brittle steels, so is M2, so being tougher than them does not exactly inspire confidence for heavy impacts.

For a large blade I would want toughness and ductility first. If these are not high enough you are going to see blade failures so what difference does it make if the blade is razor sharp when it is in pieces.

Now you can compensate for poor materials choice by adjusting the geometry, but you then end up with a knife that cuts very poorly. The above dimensions, 1/4" with a 20 degree edge is hugely overkill for the kind of use you describe. That is something that is made for very heavy prying, pounding, splitting and chopping of hard materials like thick bone.

Another method of forcing a steel to a design is to temper the RC down. This will get the required toughness and ductility no matter what the steel. However you don't do this without losing something. At the same time that you get gains in toughness and ductility you also then lower the strength and compression resistance as well you slaughter the wear resistance which is the main thing those brittle steels have going for them in the first place.

For a large knife like that I would definately not consider 10V, it is simply not optomized for that tasks, pretty much the polar opposite. I would suggest for a low end option, a steel like 1095. It has easily enough toughness, is very cheap, grinds easily and has a simple heat treat so you should be able to get a blade made a a decent price. Look at the RTAK from Livesay for example.


As an upgrade consider something like 5160. This will get you better performance, however it is going to cost a bit more. Check out Allen Blades work. Something that readily comes to mind would be one of his field bowies in 3/16" stock.


As a further upgrade still, CPM-3V. Expect to pay for this though. Also, it is critical to note that as the steels get more complex it takes far more skill to optomize them. I would *strongly* recommend that you drop Phil Wilson an email if you decide to work with CPM-3V. Ed Schott is also high on my list he has done a lot of work with 3V and has some pictures on his website.

However as a final note, while I don't consider 10V as a functional choice for a large blade (unless it is a fillet knife), there are lots of people making such heavy blades out of even more brittle steels like CPM-420V.

-Cliff
 
Clif!

GR8 post - haven't seen one of these in a while...

I would dare to add Jerry Hossom to the list of CPM3V makers...

you'd better agree - I have an 8" fighter coming from him in the said steel...

 
Well I have plenty of blades in those steels. Simple fact is I am VERY happy with D2 and M2 in fixed blades. I think I will be happy with 10V as a large knife. Point is it is what I want. It is thick and strong enough for the job IMHO. I want a very high performance steel for a custom knife, plus I am getting it at a lower price point than a Busse BM.

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
I think D-2 has gotten a bad rap for brittleness. At 62 Rc or course it is going to be brittle! Sure, it isnt as tough as 5160 or 1095, but it has good corrosion resistance, great edgeholding and good toughness IF heat treated properly.

Cliff, I agree with you on the 10-V not being suited to big knives. Why was your D-2 blade at Rc-62? I think the best tests are running the steels at the "reccomended" or known to work Rockwell hardnesses. I recently made a knife that finished and recommended Rc was 69! It cuts glass but is way to brittle, tempered back to 60 Rc it still cuts glass but is much tougher, this is an exception to the rule.
 
Wayne :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I want a very high performance steel for a custom knife</font>
Click to expand...

It isn't a high performance steel for that type of knife.

Rob :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Why was your D-2 blade at Rc-62?</font>
Click to expand...

I wanted it optomized for a light use knife. Same reason my 10V one is at 62.5. The maker has actually raised this to 64 for his personal use knives. I might upgrade mine depending on how the 15V test blades he is making perform.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">it still cuts glass</font>
Click to expand...

Many cutlery steels will readily cut glass, as the harder carbides like Vanadium are harder than glass. You will blunt the blade readily though as the steel matrix is far softer than the carbides.

If you have a steel that readily cuts glass and isn't dented that would be very impressive. Depending on the toughness of course. Most of the carbide replacement steels will do this readily but they are very brittle.

Of course by cut glass I mean a shallow scratch, not whittling it. It would be impressive for steel to be able to do that.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-05-2001).]
 
Hello
smile.gif


I've also been recently bitten by the custom bug, and bitten hard....

Welcome to the club...

Who's the maker?

Be sure to post pics when you get it
biggrin.gif


James

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The beast we are, lest the beast we become.
 
I am being VERY careful by not saying who the maker is. Not because he is not a good knife maker, but rather I do not want to bring him into this and possibly offend him or make him think he has to come down here and feel he has to defend what is my choice and my choice alone. If he is happy for me to say who is making the knife, I would be proud to say! Lets wait until the knife has been USED rather than speculate on what it can and cannot do. He has had experience with this steel (I am unsure how much) but seems to know a hell of a lot more than me about it. The blade will be hardened to about 58 (Rc) so I doubt we will see massive damage from a little chopping. That combined with a thick slab of steel (slightly over 1/4) and a tough 20 Degree per side edge = a knife that will be at least as tough as my fixed blade 7" D2 knife at Rc 60? I have had NO problems with that steel with HEAVY chopping. I realise that the Vanadium carbides may break rather than the steel matrix. But I am willing to take that risk to get a very high wear resistance in a knife. Remember chopping will be the least likely function that this knife will be used for. I have an Axe for that. Why do I need such a large knife then you may ask? Because its what I want. According to Crucible, CPM 10 V is TOUGHER than M2 OR D2 at similar Rc hardness, not a great deal, but a little. My M2 Nimravious at around 62 has taken a HAMMERING from me and never once chipped out, rolled yes, but never chipped. I fail to see why I would have a lot of trouble with 10V. The issue of rust is not an issue, I know enough about steel to look after any knife, hell I carry a Marine Tuf Cloth wit me when I go camping.

One last thing, the maker assures me he will test the knife before shipping, if it fails, he will make it right or we can come to some other arrangement. So if it does not work, I am covered
smile.gif
. As long as I do not abuse it, it is covered for life, and if I am not happy with the results, I am sure he will sort something out for me. I have no need to worry on this issue at all. I am sure I will get a good knife and more importantly the knife I want! Don't think me ungrateful for asking if 10V is a good steel and then deciding to ignore you all, only I think this will work. Tell you what, when I get it, I will use it in the field and see weither it will work for me in real life. I will not hammer it to see if it will cut a tank in half, but if it does the job for me I will be happy. If you are interested in my viewpoint, let me know and I would be glad to keep you updated. I would also like to show others who are looking to get a custom knife how easy and painless a process this can be (thanks for the idea Tom).

Thanks to all who offered any help or advice, it is VERY welcome, even if I seem a little ungrateful.

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
Good luck on your purchase(s). You will find custom knives to be an addiction. Worse than any drug
smile.gif


But it is a good addiction, just hard on the wallet!

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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
Circle P Knives
 
Wayne, in the end it is your money and your knife. It makes little sense to buy anything except what you want.

-Cliff
 
Dave Ellis ABS, Mastersmith here. there have been some really enlightening words going back and forth here and just wanted to add my 2 cents. I would use 5160 or 52100 differentially tempered. Flat or convex ground this blade in the required size should pretty much do all and any required tasks. I agree that the 1/4" inch stock beveled to the 20 degree angle is not the optimum cutter nor slicer. A nice consistent flow from the spine to the cutting edge with no discernable secondary bevel (ala Bill Morans convex grind) will far outcut ,resharpen easier and just cut like a Dickens!
Just my 2 cents,
Dave
http://www.exquisiteknives.com

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Some good ideas but I think I will go with the 10V if only because its what I want to use and I am aware of its limitations. Its not like this is a knife I will be letting my dumb mates use to cut up cans etc!

The convex/flat ground profile was something I DID want, but considering the great price I am paying for this knife, and the extra work involved grinding this steel. I did not have the cheek to ask for this! However, the knifemaker has seen this thread and is offering some interesting suggestions. I am still trying to keep the design to my budget, so I will let you all know what the final design style will be. If you are interested that is!

Thanks all!



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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
Congratulations on ordering a custom. I've got a knife from a custom maker, and a few more ordered, but they are not my design. I was lucky enough to find a maker with a couple of designs that were almost exactly what I had in mind, so....

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The General:
The convex/flat ground profile was something I DID want, but considering the great price I am paying for this knife, and the extra work involved grinding this steel. I did not have the cheek to ask for this!</font>
Click to expand...

Don't be afraid to ask for anything. Keep in mind that you are the customer, and that you are paying for a service. Giving you what you want is his job.
I wouldn't hesitate to ask for extra pickles on my $2 hamburger, and certainly wouldn't hesitate to ask for something on a knife that was costing me several hundred bucks.
 
OwenM

Fair comment, but this knife is NOT costing me ANYTHING like $700. Lets just say it is going to cost me less than a Busse BM and not much more than a Cammilus Talon in Talonite!

It is a lot of money for ME, but I am getting an amazing bargain for my first custom knife. He may be new and upcoming, but his work is stunning. This will be the best value knife I have ever bought, better value than my Opinel 12!

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
Tell ya what, if I had Rob Simonich, Cliff Stamp, and Dave Ellis telling me to choose a different steel than what I was considering.... I think I'd have a different steel on the way.

Your sig line proclaims you a Steel Snob. I'd say brushing off the advice of these 3 fellas certainly qualifies you. Just my opinion, of course.

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Sometimes I catch myself assuming that everybody knows their way around a pocket knife. Then I remember what the first three letters of "assume" are.
- James K. Mattis
 
Fair comment, but my knife will be unlike what has gone before...

I want the wear resistance MORE than the toughness. I am a fairly competent user, I do not forsee any real problems.

Fact

According to the maker

CPM 10V is TOUGHER than M2. Full stop.

M2 is a steel that I have tried and failed to damage at 62Rc with a POUNDING

CPM 10V in a THICKER STOCK at a THICKER ANGLE aught to take a little more than M2.

I am not worried.

Thanks for the comments BTW, sometime you go with what FEELS right. It feels right.

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
 
Wayne, I am certainly not trying to talk you out of using 10-V for your knife! Your knife and your money as Cliff said. I am interested on hearing the results.

One thing to keep in mind about toughness, steels, heat treating etc. Very very few steels were or are developed for hand held knives! Therefore a particular steel with a particular heat treat and hardness may work very well for a bearing, plastic mold, turbine blade etc, but may fail miserably as a hand held knife blade! I have personally found one steel to be touted as very tough to certainly be very tough, but will not take impacts well at all at any hardness. Just my view as a maker!
 
OK, I've gotta stand up and say this...

Geeze, is this place great or what?
Free advice from some of the top dawgs in the business!
Wowiee Zowiee, sometimes ya gotta step back and see the big picture (& it is good)

General, Good luck with you project. Let us know how it works out, rain or shine
smile.gif

I remain, Ebbtide
 
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