Just What Constitutes "Mint", "New in the Box", etc. ?

[Modoc ED]

It hasn't been lost on me that several of the knives that I have received have been picked over (unwrapped/wrapped) a few times as the waxed/tissue wrappers are worn/torn. In other words, the knives in the wrappers are not new, mint, or unused. This stands out especially on the GEC waxed wrappers. How many times do we see a member post that his dealer handpicked his knife. That means the dealer had to take his knife out of it's box or tube to inspect it - so much for unopened, new, mint, unused. And how many knives were unwrapped and picked over until the dealer found "The One" for his buyer? Further, how many imperfections (small as they may be) were imprinted on that dealer inspected knife while the knife was unwrapped and handled by the dealer?

 

[Duper]

I figure if the knife was never carried or sharpened, comes with all the original packaging intact and there are no visible blemishes on the actual knife I would accept it as "new in the box". If the prior owner fondled it, took a few pictures which can be important to the sale and also as proof of what he represented in the condition of the sale I would be satisfied. If the seller had kept it for a few months and put some mineral oil on the blade to preserve it I am still OK with that item being described as "New in the box".

I would actually prefer that the online vendor inspect any knife before sending it to me.

Just my opinion. Others can differ.

,,,Mike in Canada

 

[Chui]

....one man's mint is another man's parsley, I guess

Mint, imho, is untouched - literally. I have a client who collects O gauge model railway stuff - he has some boxes (kept in other boxes to keep the original box safe) that have never been opened in yeeeaaars since they were originally made and sold by the manufacturer, still has the small bits of crispy sellotape holding it shut. What he does is to x-ray the boxes and he can see what's inside confirmed against the original catalogues...........now, that's mint

New in box - well, how new..? It could be years old and still 'as new' in box.

Most honest description I'd suggest for most of the above is 'Not used or carried with original box and wrapping'.........with variations like, for example, 'occasionally fondled and admired'........'taken out of box for photos only'.

At the end of the day, if it's a known seller with good rep we should be fine for an honest description..........otherwise and always, an element of buyer beware

 

[JJ_Colt45]

I don't think anyone would buy a knife and not open it unwrap it and handle it ... after all to open it and get a feel for it ... thats the only way to know if you like it and it's what you wanted ...

most aren't strictly collectors to leave it unopened or untouched ... and the wax paper they use anymore tears at times just in the tube or box so that's not unusual ...

as long as the knife hasn't been carried and its not been used or sharpened and its been stored where there is no rust or patina ... I would consider LNIB ...

now if I list a knife for sale I try to show pictures of all the packaging and paperwork along with the knife if anyone asks for the more detailed pictures.

 

[PirateSeulb]

For me I see Unopened, Mint, New, and Unused as four different descriptors and some can be combined

Unopened means just that and would imply new, unused, and what I might label "factory mint" as the product is in the original packaging and has never been removed from it.

Mint this is a statement of the condition of the product and would imply that it is impeccable with no flaws and has seen no wear or aging and generally implies unused

New this is more of a generalized term that often implies age and condition but does not require that and item is unopened or unused nor does it require it be in a mint condition state but it is expected to be in at least a near mint state.

Unused means nothing more than that this product has never been used it can be old it can be fondled and it may not be mint as some damage can be due to aging and/or improper storage.

As an addition I will add some clarity to factory mint which basically means an item may or may not have damage but is as mint as it came from the manufacturer more of a safety to eliminate blame from the seller from a defective item.

 

[Phixt]

I have absolutely no idea. I was recently told by all the veterans in another thread that they expect, "Blemish free models to be blemish free," after I stated I know to expect $200-2000+ knives to come with blemishes. Again, I have no idea what this means. My best folder by far is a Bill Kennedy I just got and you can clearly see a faint line that extends from the nick to the tip; this is from the maker, not the previous owner. Again, stunning knife and I love it.

I often recieve sprint runs, flash batches and one offs with boxes with ripped corners from dealers. I don't care, but I see through threads many do. The knives themselves always have a visible blemish or cosmetic flaw.

Just like with knives, I'm frequently sent (and I keep) shoes that are advertised and sold as new in box, but when I get them you can clearly see someone already tried out the shoes, wrapped em back up and sent back for resale. Not too big a deal, but some are more chunked than others. I don't request the floor model when I go to Dick's.

All this money and hundreds of new knives later, I'm still waiting to recieve a blemish free folder/fixed. Somebody else will have to answer your question.

 

[supratentorial]

The general topic of condition is a really good topic for discussion... and there are a lot of different issues that could be discussed.

When it comes to dealers handling the knives, I'm all for it if it means the knives are being individually photographed and/or examined so that defects can be culled and/or clearanced. I like seeing the exact knife that I'm buying. And I have not really experienced any problem here. Just buy from a dealer with clean hands. I don't know about returns. Some of the returns will end up back on shelves. Again, I haven't had a problem.

On the secondary market, you're more likely to have issues. A common hobby seems to be buying and playing with the knives, photographing them, and then reselling them to fund buying the next run. Some people will say something like "taken out of the tube only for photos" to differentiate. Others will call it "new in tube" even if it's been toyed with. That's why good photos are so important. But there's sometimes such a rush to buy GEC knives that people get away with poor photos and descriptions. I've seen people trying to buy a GEC knife based on price alone when the seller had not even stated the model or posted photos!

If the wax paper becomes a big deal to collectors, sellers will just buy sheets of it and replace the worn paper.

There's no universal acceptance of the meaning of mint. If you buy from dealers and forum members that you know and trust, then there's probably not going to be cause for worry. Always be wary of folks who use grading systems, especially for antiques. The grading scales are typically designed to mislead the buyer so ask lots of questions. I much prefer that someone tell it straight rather than use euphemisms. As one example, I had an antique dealer send me a knife that he described as "excellent" but it had all sorts of mechanical problems that could not be seen in photos. These were not little problems either. These were major problems! He defended himself by saying it is "excellent" on his grading scale. On his scale, "excellent" knives have lots of defects. In this case, he couldn't argue his way out of it because he did not even state that he was using a grading scale. Using "excellent" sounds a lot better than saying "lots of problems". That's why some dishonest sellers use scales to describe antique knives.

 

[Phixt]

Mint <--- ambiguous collector's term.

 

[gunstockjack]

It hasn't been lost on me that several of the knives that I have received have been picked over (unwrapped/wrapped) a few times as the waxed/tissue wrappers are worn/torn. In other words, the knives in the wrappers are not new, mint, or unused. This stands out especially on the GEC waxed wrappers. How many times do we see a member post that his dealer handpicked his knife. That means the dealer had to take his knife out of it's box or tube to inspect it - so much for unopened, new, mint, unused. And how many knives were unwrapped and picked over until the dealer found "The One" for his buyer? Further, how many imperfections (small as they may be) were imprinted on that dealer inspected knife while the knife was unwrapped and handled by the dealer?

A few thoughts on this issue;

In the case of GEC, we dealers frequently receive product with torn waxed paper right out-of-the-box from the factory; I imagine they get torn during shipping and GEC isn't intentionally tearing the paper prematurely.

Returned product can be another issue if the person that originally bought the knife ham-handedly re-wrapped the paper before returning. GEC doesn't furnish extra paper; I use a paper with corrosion inhibitors instead or over the torn/wrinkled paper, in fact over any knife I visually inspect. I do not handle or open/close NIT product except for photos when required, and then wear inspection gloves.

Dealers may show knives at knife and gun shows where they get handled but not purchased, and so factory oil may not be present after wiping down the knife.

One other point; I have pulled knives out of storage more than once that were mint before storing, only to find age specks and spider webbing on the carbon steel blades. This definitely hurts the value and is a shock to discover on mint old stock knives by any maker. (It was a mint ten dot Case, but now.....) No matter what defense I use, it seems some always get attacked by the environment.

Mint is mint, and if it's not mint it is used, but un-opened could be a surprise!

JMHDAO.

 

[Txjohn]

Do older knives like tested or XX era case get a handicap? I've heard and read that a few spots wouldn't knock one out of "mint"

 

[supratentorial]

Do older knives like tested or XX era case get a handicap? I've heard and read that a few spots wouldn't knock one out of "mint"

a LOT of shiny old knives are buffed and descriptions of condition are often inflated or completely false. Ironically, the knives that are actually well preserved often sell for less than knives in poor condition that were buffed to a shine and called "mint".

 

[rje58]

Exactly! and you've hit on a very important point: "Again, I have no idea what this means."

No one can tell you exactly what another persons grading system or standards are. Some of my knives look ALMOST "blemish free" until I pull out my loupe... I'm just so glad I'm not a dealer with how picky some people can be!

Personally, I've never returned a knife - yet - but of course, if and when I get one with a significant defect, I will. The only knives I've ever purchased that turned out to have significant defects were so inexpensive that it wasn't worth the return postage.

I have absolutely no idea. I was recently told by all the veterans in another thread that they expect, "Blemish free models to be blemish free," after I stated I know to expect $200-2000+ knives to come with blemishes. Again, I have no idea what this means.

 

[black mamba]

My pet peeve is on eBay, where the definition of new is "A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item." Frequently people list items as new that don't even have the original box, so it can't possibly be "New." As far as I'm concerned, if it has already been sold by a retailer, then it is no longer new. It could still be described as mint, or like new, but should not be represented as new. To me "mint" is a step above "like new," where the item is literally just as it came from the factory, has been handled by at least one buyer, but has never been carried or sharpened, and all original packaging is pristine. "Like new" could be carried or even carefully sharpened, but shows no signs of it, in other words it's impossible to differentiate from a new item. Anything less than like new should be represented by a % figure, as 95% or 80%, etc.

 

[supratentorial]

My pet peeve is on eBay, where the definition of new is "A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item." Frequently people list items as new that don't even have the original box, so it can't possibly be "New." As far as I'm concerned, if it has already been sold by a retailer, then it is no longer new. It could still be described as mint, or like new, but should not be represented as new. To me "mint" is a step above "like new," where the item is literally just as it came from the factory, has been handled by at least one buyer, but has never been carried or sharpened, and all original packaging is pristine. "Like new" could be carried or even carefully sharpened, but shows no signs of it, in other words it's impossible to differentiate from a new item. Anything less than like new should be represented by a % figure, as 95% or 80%, etc.

I agree that "mint" is a above "like new". But to me, a knife is no longer "like new" if it has been sharpened. If it is sharpened, then it is not the same as it was when new. I'd prefer it described as "sharpened but otherwise like new" if it had not been used.

How would the percentage work? What is an 80% for example?

For me, I think I prefer a direct description. For example, I had some knives that I bought new and put in storage. Some were multiples or backups. After 5+ years, I decided that I didn't need them and sold them. I described them as being in storage for 5+ years and gave descriptions of each as needed... For example...

"Selling 6 knives. All come with boxes. All have the original edges on the blades. All of them have been in storage for 5 years or more. Knife1 and the knife2 were only removed from the boxes for the photos. Knife3, Knife4 and Knife5 were never used but they were previously stored separate from the boxes in divider trays and they have scratches. The box for Knife5 has some scuffs. Knife6 was also never used but it has some oxidation spots from years of storage."

 

[Vinifera]

I would assume any disputes related to a description would be adjudicated by the knife police and their definitions. After a trial the knife police judge would issue his or her opinion as to whether or not the description accurately described the product. The parties would be bound by the decision of the knife police judge and enforcement of the judgment would be by the knife police.

 

[supratentorial]

I would assume any disputes related to a description would be adjudicated by the knife police and their definitions. After a trial the knife police judge would issue his or her opinion as to whether or not the description accurately described the product. The parties would be bound by the decision of the knife police judge and enforcement of the judgment would be by the knife police.

Isn't it trial by GB&U?

 

[r redden]

a LOT of shiny old knives are buffed and descriptions of condition are often inflated or completely false. Ironically, the knives that are actually well preserved often sell for less than knives in poor condition that were buffed to a shine and called "mint".

I learned that lesson a long time ago the hard way Jake. I am very careful especially on the big auction site when buying an older knife that is listed as mint because you have more than a 50/50 chance you are buying a knife that's been buffed or even been built from "NOS" parts. Which is another subject I think belongs in this thread New Old Stock I know they're out there but you can sure get taken with those type listings too. What gets me is all the folks that find BF or AAPK or any of the forums get excited about knife collecting jump on the secondary market and spend their hard earned money buying into what I call false advertising because of some unscrupulous greedy seller taking advantage of their lack of knowledge.
One last thought WHEN BUYING USING PayPal ALWAYS USE GOODS AND SERVICES TO BUY NO EXCEPTIONS. If someone wants you to use the Friends and Family option they may just be trying to squeeze out another dollar or two but they also may be trying to get you to forgo your right to recourse and if you choose to go that route and something happens it's your bad.

My pet peeve is on eBay, where the definition of new is "A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item." Frequently people list items as new that don't even have the original box, so it can't possibly be "New." As far as I'm concerned, if it has already been sold by a retailer, then it is no longer new. It could still be described as mint, or like new, but should not be represented as new. To me "mint" is a step above "like new," where the item is literally just as it came from the factory, has been handled by at least one buyer, but has never been carried or sharpened, and all original packaging is pristine. "Like new" could be carried or even carefully sharpened, but shows no signs of it, in other words it's impossible to differentiate from a new item. Anything less than like new should be represented by a % figure, as 95% or 80%, etc.

I agree Jeff except like Jake said to me if its been sharpened it is no longer like new. I like to see when folks go ahead and describe the knife for what it is. IMO you don't have to go nuts in the description but say for example " has been carried a few times and the edge has been touched up but is still in great condition" . For me I would buy that knife faster than one described as "mint, NIT or NIB" because I would feel the seller was doing their best to be honest and accurate.

 

[black mamba]

I agree that more information about specific faults is better, but I still maintain that if the knife is indistinguishable from a new one, regardless whether or not it's been sharpened or carried, then "like new" is still accurate. If it has specific faults to list, then it wouldn't be like new.

 

[sitflyer]

Faults could very well be from a less than perfect manufactured knife. Mint implies to me, as it left the factory, never opened, handled, inspected, the only knife I would consider positively mint is one that was sold in a clamshell and is still sealed, all others would be suspect. New in box would imply to me, all packing materials present, could be opened, handled, photographed, and never carried. Like new would imply to me perhaps carried, but never sharpened, no signs of use, like scratches, dings, or major swirls on bolsters, would include all packing materials.

If I buy a knife from a secondary seller, I assume it is used, the degree to which will vary and must be verified by careful examination of photos and using discernment in interpreting the sellers claimed condition. I buy used knives with an eye to price, and personal desirability. Claimed condition has zero meaning in the grand scheme of things, caveat emptor.

 

[Planterz]

Forgive me if I'm repeating something someone has already said. I thought I'd give my own opinion without being influenced by others.

For me, unless the packaging is somehow sealed (plastic wrap, clamshell, stickers, etc), I'll accept a knife that has been removed from the packaging, blades opened inspected, pivots flexed to check for wobble, photographed, etc, as "NIB" (or tube, or whatever). In fact, I'd prefer that it has been inspected and photographed, particularly if it has handles made from bone (well dyed, matching), stag (well matched), wood (nice grain), etc.

Unless a knife comes directly from a dealer that simply grabs the knife from the stock and ships it, I'd rather know what I'm receiving as opposed to rolling the dice.

An inspected, unused knife might be better described as "mint", or even LNIB, but I'll accept NIB as a description. But if the knife has been used more than simple inspection (carried but not damaged, edge burr touched up, gunky/gritty pivots flushed, micarta scrubbed, etc), mint and LNIB should be used.

When selling a knife myself, I always try to be as forthcoming as I can in the interest of full disclosure. I've never sold a knife NIB (that I remember), and any that I've sold as mint or LNIB have been used some (usually just fiddling with a pivot or cutting a bit of newspaper), and I'll disclose that in the description.

Seriously, I'd find it hard to believe that anybody other than dealers or flippers would buy and then sell a knife without checking it first, and probably photographing it. And I'd be wary if they did sell without at least opening it and looking at it. At the very least, so you know that the knife is in the packaging, and not mispackaged. Wrong knife, wrong variant, a bunch of rocks, etc.