Just What Constitutes "Mint", "New in the Box", etc. ?

This whole discussion is one big reason I don't sell knives, ever. I've also learned over the years that people will misuse words that have actual clear meanings in order to benefit themselves. "Mint condition" means "Untouched by human hands, exactly as it was struck in the mint". Knives are made, not minted, so they can't be "Mint condition". Using the term in the description of a knife, especially a pre-owned knife, tells me the seller is trying to sell me a bill of goods. That's why there is confusion over what words mean, people misuse them until the meanings are lost.
 
yablanowitz said:
This whole discussion is one big reason I don't sell knives, ever. I've also learned over the years that people will misuse words that have actual clear meanings in order to benefit themselves. "Mint condition" means "Untouched by human hands, exactly as it was struck in the mint". Knives are made, not minted, so they can't be "Mint condition". Using the term in the description of a knife, especially a pre-owned knife, tells me the seller is trying to sell me a bill of goods. That's why there is confusion over what words mean, people misuse them until the meanings are lost.
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You can seriously be mislead by words. To a coin collector "mint" isn't the best. Because although the coin may be as it came from the stamping it's dumped in a bag with others, scratches and dings included.
 
For knives, since they are not minted, mint means exactly as it left the factory. Knives are like cars, with respect to condition. If you watch the Barrett-Jackson auctions on TV, then you know there is something called "better than mint." Cars which go through a full restoration can be cleaner, smoother, better tuned, better fit and finish, etc., than the original factory produced model. Sitflyer is right, that "knives exactly as they leave the factory" could cover a range of conditions. Even with a GEC, the gold standard for current traditional production, a brand new knife could be taken from the packaging and improved upon by flushing, oiling, touching up the edge, etc. This knife would then be better than mint, but not mint as far as serious collectors are concerned. I know I've bought used knives that were much better than any new one of the same make I ever handled. Razor sharp with lowered bevels and smooth as glass: they were definitely better than mint as a user.
 
A knife that has not been used or carried is still mint to me. Just because it was taken out of its package for photos, or to work the blades a few times, and then wrapped back up doesn't make it less perfect. I don't have any ill-conceived notions that the workers in knife factories are walking around in a medical clean rooms carrying the knives with gloves from each step of manufacturing. I've been to Queen, Case, and GEC and seen the manufacturing processes.
 
gunstockjack said:
A few thoughts on this issue;

In the case of GEC, we dealers frequently receive product with torn waxed paper right out-of-the-box from the factory; I imagine they get torn during shipping and GEC isn't intentionally tearing the paper prematurely. :eek::);)

Returned product can be another issue if the person that originally bought the knife ham-handedly re-wrapped the paper before returning. GEC doesn't furnish extra paper; I use a paper with corrosion inhibitors instead or over the torn/wrinkled paper, in fact over any knife I visually inspect. I do not handle or open/close NIT product except for photos when required, and then wear inspection gloves.:cool:

Dealers may show knives at knife and gun shows where they get handled but not purchased, and so factory oil may not be present after wiping down the knife.:confused:

One other point; I have pulled knives out of storage more than once that were mint before storing, only to find age specks and spider webbing on the carbon steel blades. This definitely hurts the value and is a shock to discover on mint old stock knives by any maker. (It was a mint ten dot Case, but now.....):confused::(:oops: No matter what defense I use, it seems some always get attacked by the environment.

Mint is mint, and if it's not mint it is used, but un-opened could be a surprise! :eek::oops:

JMHDAO. :D:D:D
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Thank You :) :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
I'm not a serious collector but I ran across this. V

In 1973, the National Knife Collectors Association developed a knife grading system that has been the standard for many years. Unfortunately, there are several grey areas in the original system, and now many dealers and collectors grade knives more like what is described in the table below.

Condition

Description

Pristine mint: Knives in this category must be flawless, and must have additional characteristics that set them apart from mint. They could have an unusually good fit for example.
Mint: This would be a knife that has never been carried, never sharpened, never used, and does not have rust problems of any kind. Some collectors will classify a very old knife that has a few rust marks as mint (especially those made prior to WWII). The newer the knife gets from there, the less rust specs it must have to maintain its mint status. In addition, most Case knife collectors are a bit stricter on grading knives. An old Case knife with any rust mark would not be considered mint. Note: A knife that had rust, and was cleaned to look mint would be considered near mint or worse depending on how harshly it was cleaned.
Near Mint: There must be nothing wrong with a near mint knife. It should “walk and talk” and must have most of the original polish visible on the blades. Very light sharpening would be acceptable, but the blades must be full. It can have some light rust spots, but no deep rust pits. Some light carry scratches are permitted on the outside as well.
Excellent: Knives in this condition would include solid, lightly used knives. There may be a bit of blade wear (no more than 10%). Some tarnish and light pitting would be acceptable. Blades should snap well, and the tang mark should be clear.
Very Good: Knives in this category are generally fairly well used knives. There may be blade wear of up to 25%. The blades should still be sound, but one or more may be slow. The stamping should be readable, but may be faint. The handles may have cracks and wear, but shouldn’t have major chipping. The knife might also have some rust pitting and tarnish.
Good: Knives in good condition must still be useable as a working knife. Blade wear may be between 25-50%. There might be chips in the handle or blade. Blades may be slow with deep pits and rust. You should still be able to make out the maker of the knife by shield or tang stamp.
Poor: A poor knife is generally only good for parts. The blades might be less than 50%, extra lazy or even broken. Tang marks are generally barely legible, and the handles may be chipped.
Junk: Anything less than poor. These knives would be pretty much worthless. May have a liner, back spring or bolster that would be salvageable for parts, but probably not even that.
 
skyhorse said:
I'm not a serious collector but I ran across this. V

In 1973, the National Knife Collectors Association developed a knife grading system that has been the standard for many years. Unfortunately, there are several grey areas in the original system, and now many dealers and collectors grade knives more like what is described in the table below.

Condition

Description

Pristine mint: Knives in this category must be flawless, and must have additional characteristics that set them apart from mint. They could have an unusually good fit for example.
Mint: This would be a knife that has never been carried, never sharpened, never used, and does not have rust problems of any kind. Some collectors will classify a very old knife that has a few rust marks as mint (especially those made prior to WWII). The newer the knife gets from there, the less rust specs it must have to maintain its mint status. In addition, most Case knife collectors are a bit stricter on grading knives. An old Case knife with any rust mark would not be considered mint. Note: A knife that had rust, and was cleaned to look mint would be considered near mint or worse depending on how harshly it was cleaned.
Near Mint: There must be nothing wrong with a near mint knife. It should “walk and talk” and must have most of the original polish visible on the blades. Very light sharpening would be acceptable, but the blades must be full. It can have some light rust spots, but no deep rust pits. Some light carry scratches are permitted on the outside as well.
Excellent: Knives in this condition would include solid, lightly used knives. There may be a bit of blade wear (no more than 10%). Some tarnish and light pitting would be acceptable. Blades should snap well, and the tang mark should be clear.
Very Good: Knives in this category are generally fairly well used knives. There may be blade wear of up to 25%. The blades should still be sound, but one or more may be slow. The stamping should be readable, but may be faint. The handles may have cracks and wear, but shouldn’t have major chipping. The knife might also have some rust pitting and tarnish.
Good: Knives in good condition must still be useable as a working knife. Blade wear may be between 25-50%. There might be chips in the handle or blade. Blades may be slow with deep pits and rust. You should still be able to make out the maker of the knife by shield or tang stamp.
Poor: A poor knife is generally only good for parts. The blades might be less than 50%, extra lazy or even broken. Tang marks are generally barely legible, and the handles may be chipped.
Junk: Anything less than poor. These knives would be pretty much worthless. May have a liner, back spring or bolster that would be salvageable for parts, but probably not even that.
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This type of grading system is what I warned about. There are tons of grading scales and each one is different but it is best to avoid using any of them. There is no reason to use a grading scale instead of a detailed description except to hide things from the buyer and make it sound better than it is. For example using the scale "Very good" sounds a LOT better than "slow, cracked, and pitting" but both are the same on that scale. It is especially misleading if the scale is not shown. Avoid it and describe the knife in detail.

supratentorial said:
....Always be wary of folks who use grading systems, especially for antiques. The grading scales are typically designed to mislead the buyer so ask lots of questions. I much prefer that someone tell it straight rather than use euphemisms. As one example, I had an antique dealer send me a knife that he described as "excellent" but it had all sorts of mechanical problems that could not be seen in photos. These were not little problems either. These were major problems! He defended himself by saying it is "excellent" on his grading scale. On his scale, "excellent" knives have lots of defects. In this case, he couldn't argue his way out of it because he did not even state that he was using a grading scale. Using "excellent" sounds a lot better than saying "lots of problems". That's why some dishonest sellers use scales to describe antique knives.
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The NKCA grading system seems to be designed primarily for much older knives. Just within the Near Mint category you could have a perfect knife or one that's scratched and rusty. These should never be in the same category. And to me, their Very Good should be Almost Shot.
 
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