Ka-Bar BK-16 Quality Control : UPDATE

[Dexwithers]

Ok, I don’t want this to be a thread bashing Ka-bar cause they are my favorite knife company and Ethan Becker is my favorite Knife designer. I have mad respect for both and I will continue to buy Ka-bar knives no matter what. I am simply wondering about the quality control of their knives. I own close to 40 (maybe more) knives made by Ka-bar, and have given away a few more as gifts. I believe in american made products and understand that not all knives can be made exactly alike and I accept that.

However, since I have bought so many knives, I can see that some are not made equal. Especially the ones that I have bought multiples of. The BK-16 is one of those knives and I believe it is the Best all around knife for its size. It feels better in hand than any other knife and the blade shape is perfect for everything from kitchen work to skinning to bushcraft stuff.

I have bought a total of 10 Bk-16’s since they were released. Two first productions when they were first released, both of which were perfect except one has a handle that is curved downward, which I actually think is a plus. Three full flat grinds that were perfect, two of which I gave away as Christmas gifts in 2012. One used Bk-16 that was slightly modified. One new laser etched Saber grind that was absolutely perfect and was the sharpest out of the box Ka-bar I have ever owned. And that leaves the last 3 BK-16’s that I purchased that were, well, quite frankly not up to par. One of which I bough a while ago and had an awful edge on the tip that was way more over to one side than the other. Have been meaning to send it back to Ka-bar but have been procrastinating. The next two were one’s I bought about 2 weeks ago and were to be Christmas Gifts this year but they had the worst inconsistencies I have ever seen. I honesty don’t know how they made it out of the factory?? When a Designer like Ethan Becker designs a blade shape, it should be made within close tolerances to his original idea, right?

Now my concern is not that they will affect me since I will contact Ka-bar next week and hopefully send all three back and have them replaced (fingers crossed) but I am wondering about how many knifes are out there like the one’s I received in peoples hands that do not have a loyalty to BK&T or Ka-bar as I do and think that all the knives are like this? If my first one would have looked like some of these, I probably would never have bought one again.

These last three have all been purchased in the last few months so it is either a recent quality control issue or there is someone new sharpening the knives and have no idea what they are doing?

Have any of you experienced what I am talking about?

My wife had the camera today so I was not able to take any pictures, but I will up load pics comparing all of them tomorrow.

I just wanted to get some input from you guys now.

Thanks

 

[Dexwithers]

Here are all of my BK-16's except 1. The top 4 are pretty consistent and I am very happy with the blade shape and original factory grinds. I have convexed number 2 and 3.

Here is my best example of what the blade shape should be. The top 4 knives were really close to this one. I traced the blade to compare all the other blades to it.

Just for reference, I will show you what the curved handle looks like. I have done a lot of modding to this knife but none of it affected the handle shape, the curve was like this from day one.
I actually like the curve in the handle and think it is useful.

My User Full Flat grind. Same blade shape just a hair smaller which is fine and could be due to the convexing. The other two BK-16's I gave away were very close to this one and the grinds were perfect.

Here is my favorite BK-16. It's a new coating saber grind. (Please don't ask me how to get one, cause if I knew how to get another I would be buying it right now.)
This one's shape was perfect and was the sharpest Ka-bar I ever received. The shape was actually slightly larger than the other ones but not by much.

This one is actually not to bad. I could live with it for sure. The real problem is the grind is way over to one side. I could fix it myself.

Here is a couple pics of the uneven grind on the tip.

Now this guy is just ridiculous. See that big flat spot where it should be curved?

And this one is even worse. Looks like a stubby 16.

All three bad one's together.

The worst two next to my good one.

Some tracings of the three bad blades next to a good blade.

Hope the pictures show what I was talking about. I tried to keep everything as consistent as possible while photographing.

 

[Screwdriver]

I'd love to see pics.....

 

[Jonny1280]

Man Dex, that sucks. I'm sorry to hear it.
I've recently aquired a new 9 & 11. No issues. Grinds were great and the edges were some of the sharpest I've had from the factory.
Come to think of it, the only bad grind I've had was on my Camillus BK2. One grind was noticably higher than the other.
I've had good luck with everything from Ka-bar.
I wonder if they have someone new sharpening at the factory?
I'm sure Ka-bar will make it right and hopefully they can figure out what's going on.

 

[Galeocerdoshark]

Hi Dex, sorry to hear that. I've got no idea how this is possible, since the latest knives I've gotten from Ka-Bar have had the best edges, imo.
When I got my first BK&T, an Eskabar, that edge was OK but nothing special. Then I got a 16 somewhere in '12 which was also good, but not really shaving. Whereas in 2013 I got a BK24, pretty close to release date as well as a Ka-Bar Dozier folder. A Ka-Bar Swabbie back in...August, September? Can't remember. And about a month ago I got a BK9. All from the factory. All had really good edges that were better than the ones I had gotten back in 2012.
I hope this can get resolved for you, Dex.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

BK-9 was my sharpest out of the box knife and I got a bunch of knives from different companies.
The thing cut my skin while testing how well it shaves. That never happened to me before.
I wonder how they achieve such an edge. Way better than what I get on an edge pro when I go down to 1000 Grit. Maybe its more toothy?

 

[Kai Winters]

Quality Control is always a percentage of manufactured items...one in ten, etc...based on that it is always possible that some less than perfect items will be shipped...that is where returning them or contacting the maker to complain/inform comes in...using the run number, etc. the knife/item can be tracked to the day it was made, person who made it etc. From that the person can be asked if there were any problems with the knife/item that day, etc. and generally noted and watched for a higher level of QC as needed and perhaps retrained, etc. as needed.

Manufacturing is all about people...not all are at their best every day...sometimes QC is lessened when there are no problems for a specific amount of time or number of items made...it all depends and is generally money motivated...QC does not create therefore generally is seen as less than optimal in most businesses...Yep I'm a QC person and have inspected everything from missile guidance systems to nuts and bolts.

The best thing to do is return the item, get replacements and allow the company to track the problem and resolve it for future improvements.

 

[22-rimfire]

As near as I can determine, the issue is improper factory sharpening. Sharpening inconsistancies happen. Try buying Queen knives and see what you think?

Send them back if you don't want to fix the edges yourself.

 

[Skystorm]

No. When I pay full price for something I do not expect to need to be fixing it out of the box. Since they are sharpened by people in a high output manufacturing facility I would expect mild inconsistencies from one to the next as something to be expected. Wild glaring defects I would want it replaced, everybody has their off days and a grinder can get away from you pretty fast. Ka-Bar is always awesome about replacements, but I've never needed any.

As near as I can determine, the issue is improper factory sharpening. Sharpening inconsistancies happen. Try buying Queen knives and see what you think?

Send them back if you don't want to fix the edges yourself.

 

[Ethan Becker]

Hey Mr. Dex......

Please do contact KA-Bar on Monday....... A word of warning EVERYBODY is getting ready for SHOT this week...... If you wait a couple of weeks people will be more attentive.... please call me at 423 295-2500 or text 513-703-3143 if you get no answer on the 423 number and I will call you back...... I will be at the 423 number today till
About two est.

Sorry to inconvenience you......We WILL make this right...........

All Best.....

Ethan

 

[Dexwithers]

Thanks guys. I have no doubt that Ka-bar will take care it for me. They have always been great about fixing stuff.
I just really wonder what's going on in the sharpening department over there to have some knives come out perfect and then three in a row come out, well, not so good at all?

I have uploaded pics of what I was talking about.

As near as I can determine, the issue is improper factory sharpening. Sharpening inconsistancies happen. Try buying Queen knives and see what you think?

Send them back if you don't want to fix the edges yourself.

Yea, this is beyond just fixing the edges on two of them. They are missing like 2-3mm of metal compared to the other blades. I don't expect to have that much metal gone after years of sharpening unless I drastically modify and reprofile the blade shape.

Hey Mr. Dex......

Please do contact KA-Bar on Monday....... A word of warning EVERYBODY is getting ready for SHOT this week...... If you wait a couple of weeks people will be more attentive.... please call me at 423 295-2500 or text 513-703-3143 if you get no answer on the 423 number and I will call you back...... I will be at the 423 number today till
About two est.

Sorry to inconvenience you......We WILL make this right...........

All Best.....

Ethan

Hi Ethan, Thank you so much for responding. This is one of the reasons I will always recommend and buy Becker knives.
I know things are crazy around there and I am in no real hurry so when ever Ka-bar can take care of it is fine.

I will give you a call for sure with in the next hour or so.

Thank you sir.

 

[Galeocerdoshark]

There are some uneven grinds indeed. I have two Beckers that have uneven grinds as well, see the picture below.
It doesn't really bother me personally, since it only affects aesthetics rather than function.

 

[Kai Winters]

Sure looks like a new person at the grinder/sander...Now is when QC can shine...tracing the knives back to who made them, carefully inspecting what he/she is currently working on and retraining as needed.
The bent ones looks like seconds to me that possibly slid through the QC process as not the one in ten being inspected.

Quick QC story. We were getting complaints from the end user regarding bolts that were too soft and failing under load...mil spec...We looked at our paperwork...I was one of the two inspectors...and all tested...destructive Rockwell Hardness testing...well within range...we pulled out the most recently but not shipped box of bolts pulled some out and tested...yep passed with flying colors...lead QC inspector said "let's flip the box and test the bolts on the bottom...sure enough failed miserably...smart arses were putting a layer several inches deep of good bolts with the shoddy ones below...good lesson learned...they had always been a quality supplier...not any longer and there were ramifications.
This stuff happens sometimes due to cheating, most times due to new workers that are inexperienced, trying to meet production levels, having a rough day, etc.

I'd return every knife that did not meet my standards/expectations with a note on each detailing my complaint...I'm sure, as has been said, that they will be replaced with knives of better quality.

Good luck and keep us informed...

 

[Kai Winters]

oops double post

 

[BigBert]

Thanks for the post. It's eye opening to see how QC can vary; especially the one that had a completely different shape than the others. The only issues I have ever had with my Beckers, also the 16, was that the scales weren't a perfect fit to the tang. I've never had any edge/grind issues. I just got a BK9 for Christmas that was flawless and shaving sharp actually. Once again, good on Ethan for his customer service and fixing this problem. I've dealt with so many companies, in and out of the blade world, who offer "lifetime warranties" or "satisfaction guaranteed" but when something goes wrong they don't live up to it. A gun holster company who will remain nameless offered a 2 week trial period where if you didn't like the fit/feel you could return it no questions asked. When I tried to return it after a few days, the company instead offered me a few tips to make it more comfortable. When those didn't help and I tried again, they said "try this one last thing"....when that didn't help I tried to return it yet again and they said "I'm sorry but you are past the 2 week return period". They drug their feet until it had been 2 weeks and then they just said I was SOL. I wish all companies stood behind their products the way Becker and Ka-Bar do.

 

[Dexwithers]

Wow!! Such great customer service. Just got off the phone with Ethan Becker. What an awesome guy.

Such a pleasure to speak to you sir. Hopefully I can make it one of the gatherings some day and meet you in person.

I will let you all know what happens after I talk to Ka-bar. I am pretty sure everything will be taken care of.

Thanks again Ethan.

 

[GSO1962]

Hi Dex, sorry to hear that. I've got no idea how this is possible, since the latest knives I've gotten from Ka-Bar have had the best edges, imo.
When I got my first BK&T, an Eskabar, that edge was OK but nothing special. Then I got a 16 somewhere in '12 which was also good, but not really shaving. Whereas in 2013 I got a BK24, pretty close to release date as well as a Ka-Bar Dozier folder. A Ka-Bar Swabbie back in...August, September? Can't remember. And about a month ago I got a BK9. All from the factory. All had really good edges that were better than the ones I had gotten back in 2012.
I hope this can get resolved for you, Dex.

Sorry to hear about the bad luck. My experience been like G-shark's. I got one of each Becker (plus two 11's, 14's, 16's and 24's), and every one with the exception of the BK3 was able to shave hair right out of the box. With the BK3/Tac-Tool chisel grind, I don't think hair shaving is likely...even at a shallow angle I could tell it was about to take skin off rather than hair. Discretion being the better part of valor, I put it down before drawing blood. Between these and a set of ESEE Becker kitchen knives, I had shaved about a 1/3 of my left forearm before I realized how goofy I was going to look...

Most of them did seem to favor the right side a bit, similar to G-Shark's 16 photo above but it was very slight and not so noticeable without the convexing. The grinds were actually remarkably uniform across all of them, particularly with the two 16's. I had to look really closely to see it. Had you not pointed it out since yours is so noticeable, I don't think I'd have ever noticed on mine. Again, sorry for your bad luck, but glad to hear that you'll be taken care of.

 

[Skystorm]

Wow there's a good deal of difference between those. I've gifted away probably 2 dozen or so 16 and 17's and never noticed anything that drastic. I will be inspecting them a good deal more from now on.

 

[Ethan Becker]

Please note that I do not regard this as an excuse but a reason for occasional uneven edge grinds .......I have spent quite a few hours trying to make perfect final grinds soooooo......When you switch from doing the right hand side to the left it is almost impossible to get EXACTLY the same angle..........Luckily this is usually only a cosmetic issue and has virtually no effect on cutting ability...... in Dex's case there a few other issues..... These will be addressed......

Ethan

 

[Dexwithers]

Ok............ Let me take a deep breath here and try and relax.......

I just received my knives back from Ka-bar, But I will get to that in a minute.

I just wanted to Take a moment and Let you all know what a great person Ethan Becker is.

I called Ethan shortly after this was originally posted, as he asked, and we had a very nice conversation. He was such a pleasure to talk and really wanted to fix the problems with my knives. He told me He was going to talk to Ka-bar and call me the next day. Sure Enough, when I woke up Monday morning I had a message on my voice mail from Ethan Becker himself telling me he talked to Ka-bar and for me to mail to mail the knives back. I called the person he told me to contact to get the address and all that and she was also very nice.

Now We all know Ethan Becker is a very busy man....... But that did not stop him from taking the time out of his day to give me a follow up call a few evenings later to see how things were going. I informed him that I had contacted Ka-bar and had sent the knives off already. We then had an amazing conversation about knives and stuff and it really felt as If I was talking to an old friend, even tho I have never met the guy and only spoke to him once before.

Thank you Ethan, truly meant a lot to me.



Now to get down business. I sent the 3 BK-16's back along with my BK-5 sheath that broke a while back and I also included my PotBelly. It had a bent edge from just some light use. It was a hollow ground blade on quarter inch stock......... Makes no sense to me. Anyway, I included a note with all the details and what not.

Well I Just got the package back. My BK-5 sheath has been replaced!
My Pot Belly was replaced, and I didn't even think I was going to get a replacement for that one, I just sent it for them to examine. Best news ever was the new one is Flat ground! That's right!! It's actually a usable design now. And it has the new coating as well.

Ok.......... I really hate this part................

All three of my 16's were sent back to me just as they were sent to Ka-Bar....... :thumbdn::thumbdn: I Wasn't sure if the one with the off center grind was going to be replaced, I can fix it my self, it's just a pain in the ass and should be ground right to begin with. Not a big deal tho. The other two, I thought for sure were going to be replaced because they look like seconds..... hell..... maybe thirds. Who ever ground them must have just started or was drinking at lunch before they got behind the grinder.

Here is the letter Ka-bar sent me with my knives.


Dear Mr. Coyle,

Enclosed please find a replacement for you BK-5 sheath and the 5600 blade. The three BK16 do meet quality control specifications and were not replaced. The slight differences that you may see with the grinds are not considered manufacturer's defects. The steel we receive from out steel manufacturer comes cold rolled, however we do not grind the flat panels. KA-BAR does this to keep manufacturing costs down and to create an overall inexpensive, well-made product for the consumer. Each of our knives are hand ground and the slight offset is due to the differences in machines and/or whether the machinist is left or right handed. These slight differences make each of our knives unique and do not affect the functionality of the blade. Please contact customer service at the number below if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,

KA-BAR


Yep....... That's what they said.


Are you F%$&ing kidding me??????? Slight differences?? Did you even look at my damn knives? Two of them were awful. I have purchased 10 BK-16's.

That's right, 10. (TEN) That's a lot of one knife so I think I know what the blade profile of a 16 should look like. You got it perfect 7 times for me, the 8th time was not perfect but I can fix it, and the 9th and 10th time you failed miserably.

The last two blades were newly made, I believe around the december time frame. I know this because when I ordered them, the dealer had them back ordered and was waiting for some to ship from Ka-bar.

The only thing different I can think of around that time frame is........ yep that's right...... Toooj left....


I don't know who is in charge of quality control these days but KA-Bar needs to get their S%&* together.

And you think those two BK16's meet quality control specifications..... then I will not be buying any more Ka-bar made knives unless I can hold them in my damn hands first.

I own 42 BK&T knives. Only 5 are not KA-BAR made. I also own about 9 other KA-BAR knives and was looking forward to the New Jab Blades. But If I can't guarantee the blades will look somewhat like the pictures......... then I'm not going to waste my money.

I love Ethan's designs and He is my favorite knife designer but I am disappointed with KA-BAR.

Also... On a side note.... I am seriously considering starting a business making leather and kydex sheaths and how the hell are you to make kydex that fits a blade if you don't have the exact one in hand because the KA-BAR tolerances are at least 1/4 inch off from one another sometimes.

ugh.

I grew up in a machine shop manufacturing oilfield equipment and I know all about tolerances and what should be allowed to leave a machine shop and what should be scrapped.

I mean damn....... Can I start buying knives that have not been sharpened? That would be better for me and I can put a convex edge on it the way I like. And if it gets messed up, I can only blame myself not the noobs you allow behind the grinder.

Please Kabar..... I don't care who grinds all your other knives........ but for the sake of my sanity......... please only allow your senior grinders to touch the BK&T knives. Thanks

Oh my, let's wrap this up.... I could ramble all night about this.



KA-BAR: ................................................................................................................................I've got nothing to say.


Ethan Becker: You are the man my friend. I hope to meet you one day and deeply appreciate you trying everything in your power to get this resolved. This is no way at all your fault. I don't know what's going on at KA-BAR but I hope they get their act together soon so I can buy some more knives.