Recommendation? Ka-bar pen knife

Wild Willie

Wild Willie

Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
4,378
So some background. In college while working weekends on my grandfather's then operational dairy farm, my great grandmother passed away. I was then shanghaied on one of those weekends to help clean the garage of her possessions. In my various amblings through assorted boxes I discovered a small collection of knives. An imperial Barlow, a ka-bar hunting knife, and this little single spring 2 blade pen. The hunting knife and Barlow have been in my possession uninterrupted since then. The pen knife had gone AWOL until just yesterday... My dad pulled it out of one of his various stash places and said "Did I show you this one? Don't know where it came from". I told him where it had come from, and brought it home. This came from my mother's dad's side, Otis was killed in a farm accident in the early 70's so I never met the man. I suspect based on the vintage and some of the discoloration on the bolsters that the handle scales are celluloid. I find material exceedingly attractive, it's almost like a horn/MOP cross in color and luster. Also after doing a little scrubbing with some 0000 steel wool and oil it appears that the backspring is cracked in the middle. My question put to those wiser than I is this: Do I make an attempt at crafting a new spring, and re-cover the handle? Do I reach out to one of our fine craftsmen here on the forums for said work? Or do I leave it as is and risk a very lovely and storied knife wasting away to nothing due to the instability of the scales. If there's an acrylic that could match the color, and a new spring could be crafted we'd be talking about something that my potential great grandchildren could carry, and that would be something! I know there's no reason monetarily to take on such a project/restoration, but given the family history involved I'm willing to give it a whirl.16319717000731799521558.jpg16319717978401715896982.jpg1631971857549758535321.jpg
16319720594842130988674.jpg
 
I would lose the scales.
I have a Queen with two broken backsprings. Theoretically I could take the knife apart and trace and copy the springs, but in practice it would be a messy disaster.
I'd ask one of out craftsmen if I were you, though I haven't gotten around to it myself, what it would cost to replace the spring and covers.
 
On a knife that old, I would've expected to see a lot more deterioration and/or corrosion, if the covers are celluloid. Not just on the bolsters, but even more so on the blades as well. Especially if the knife had been stashed away & untouched for a long time. Maybe it's just me, but it looks in pretty good shape. Not seeing much sign of shrinkage of the covers either, which suggests to me they might not be celluloid, but maybe something else. Looking in one of my collecting guides, listings for Ka-Bar show they did make a few equal-end pen knives in genuine pearl, for whatever that's worth.

With an heirloom piece of family history, I'd maybe not be so quick to radically alter it. But keep it clean and watch it closely over time, to see if any more signs of corrosion or discoloration show up. The discoloration on the bolsters might've been due to something else - nickel & brass will do that.

That's just my 2 cents' worth...
 
scrteened porch said:
I'd ask one of out craftsmen if I were you, though I haven't gotten around to it myself
Click to expand...
I was leaning this way should I decide to do much.
Obsessed with Edges said:
On a knife that old, I would've expected to see a lot more deterioration and/or corrosion, if the covers are celluloid. Not just on the bolsters, but even more so on the blades as well. Especially if the knife had been stashed away & untouched for a long time. Maybe it's just me, but it looks in pretty good shape. Not seeing much sign of shrinkage of the covers either, which suggests to me they might not be celluloid, but maybe something else. Looking in one of my collecting guides, listings for Ka-Bar show they did make a few equal-end pen knives in genuine pearl, for whatever that's worth.

With an heirloom piece of family history, I'd maybe not be so quick to radically alter it. But keep it clean and watch it closely over time, to see if any more signs of corrosion or discoloration show up. The discoloration on the bolsters might've been due to something else - nickel & brass will do that.

That's just my 2 cents' worth...
Click to expand...
It really isn't in bad shape, I don't know a thing about celluloid, so that's why I thought I'd ask here. I really like the color and depth on the existing scales, but didn't know if it would be worth the risk if they were celluloid. Is there a sure-fire way to tell?
 
The trouble is, cel can outlive you or it can let go at any time.
I think you can stick a hot needle into it or rub it hard with silk to see what it smells like. Formaldehyde smell = celluloid?
The cracks at the pins are pretty suggestive, though, as is the age.
I'm sure you can get MOP-looking stuff that's more stable at a knife-making supply site. Changing covers is a lot easier than manufacturing springs, obviously.

Honestly, what I would do is to put it in a baggie with some baking soda, in the hopes that the baking soda will harmlessly neutralize any outgassing nitric acid, put it in a drawer, and occasionally take it out and look at it.
 
Wild Willie said:
I was leaning this way should I decide to do much.

It really isn't in bad shape, I don't know a thing about celluloid, so that's why I thought I'd ask here. I really like the color and depth on the existing scales, but didn't know if it would be worth the risk if they were celluloid. Is there a sure-fire way to tell?
Click to expand...
Every pic I've seen of outgassed celluloid damage to knives always shows a lot more corrosion & pitting on the blades, and obvious wide gaps where the covers have shrunk and/or warped away from the bolsters. And with the corrosion on the blades, it often happens on the portion exposed above the liners and not as much on the portion down in the bladewell of the knife. I'm not seeing such a line of delineation of corrosion on the blades in your pics - and the few spots visible look like the same sort of typical spotting seen on older blades in carbon steel - not much to worry about, from the look of it.

That's my impression - but wait for others to chime in, for more input.
 
Last edited:
Those are excellent. My ex's mom had her dad's original slips from Ka-Bar and a few others Mixed in. Good ol Olean N.Y. on them.
 
I am no expert in celluloid knives, and have only collected more than a handful of them from the past. But from what I read, there seems to be no guarantee whether the rate of outgassing and corrosion is predictable and constant. Nothing could happen for years, but it may just happen all at once tomorrow.

In terms of modding the knife, unless I know the person on receiving end is a fellow enthusiast, whom will continue to cherish this piece of family history as much as I do and will do all things necessary to preserve the knife and keep it as a family heirloom, I probably wouldn't count on anyone to know or care enough to help keeping it in pristine condition. In other words, I think I would start the modding process, when the first sign of corrosion appears, so I could preserve it as a heirloom and let the next generation make memories with it. YMMV.
 
The thing that keeps sticking in my mind is, if the discoloration on the bolsters had been due to outgassing, the blades and all other metal would've been attacked too. The process would've already begun, in other words, and wouldn't discriminate.

Not seeing any obvious signs of outgassing corrosion & pitting on the blades, pins & liners, AND no signs of shrinkage of the covers, suggests to me the bolsters discolored for some other reason.

As said just earlier, I wouldn't dive into a rebuild unless or until it becomes obvious it has to be done to save it.
 
comis said:
In terms of modding the knife, unless I know the person on receiving end is a fellow enthusiast, whom will continue to cherish this piece of family history as much as I do and will do all things necessary to preserve the knife and keep it as a family heirloom, I probably wouldn't count on anyone to know or care enough to help keeping it in pristine condition. In other words, I think I would start the modding process, when the first sign of corrosion appears, so I could preserve it as a heirloom and let the next generation make memories with it. YMMV.
Click to expand...
I'm 33, my kids are 3 and 7. My brother has a 2 year old and my cousins son is just about to turn 1. I'm hoping that since they all share the same great great grandfather that at least one of them will be interested enough to take the reigns when I'm ready to move it along. My daughter (3) has already expressed interest in several of my slip joints, so at least now the prospects seem good.

It's nothing I'd carry for work, but I think it'll make a fine dress knife. Does pocket time make a difference at all in staying any degradation if they turn out to be celluloid? My other thought on the back spring is one blade seems to have an acceptable level of snap, while the other is a bit anemic. Any chance that it has 2 separate springs in there? Looking in the blade well it appears that it was milled out near the center to receive the blades.

Appreciate everyone's input here, needless to say I'm fairly excited about this one turning back up. I was too young at the time I found it to really appreciate the craftsmanship involved, and the nice character of the handles. At the time I was carrying a modern lock back and thought there was no reason for anything else... Thank goodness I've seen the error of my ways. :p
 
It sounds like the spring isn’t completely broken? There’s only one spring, but it’s hard for me to tell what’s going on with it from your pic. If it is, indeed, cracked, then I’d be weary about using it safely. But, if it isn’t a real crack, I think you should just use the knife how you want to.
If it is celluloid, chuck the scales when the blades start corroding. Just keep it away from your fancy knives in case it does start out gassing.
 
Wild Willie said:
one blade seems to have an acceptable level of snap, while the other is a bit anemic. Any chance that it has 2 separate springs in there? Looking in the blade well it appears that it was milled out near the center to receive the blades.
Click to expand...
This is typical of many older, and modern, pen knives. Are the blades useable, as in, they snap into place where they are supposed to, and pressure can be applied? If so, that’s why I don’t think your backspring is broken.
 
1632003736379890271326.jpg
My picture taking definitely leaves a bit to be desired, I do all of my posting from my phone1632004208334507898710.jpg
Here's an attempt at illuminating the blade well by the middle pin.
 
The larger blade almost feels like the spring on my vic rambler. The smaller one more closely resembles a friction folder. There's actually more "snap" on the close than the open. I just applied pressure to both on the table and they don't move. Maybe it just has a crack starting...
 
Wild Willie said:
I'm 33, my kids are 3 and 7. My brother has a 2 year old and my cousins son is just about to turn 1. I'm hoping that since they all share the same great great grandfather that at least one of them will be interested enough to take the reigns when I'm ready to move it along. My daughter (3) has already expressed interest in several of my slip joints, so at least now the prospects seem good.

It's nothing I'd carry for work, but I think it'll make a fine dress knife. Does pocket time make a difference at all in staying any degradation if they turn out to be celluloid? My other thought on the back spring is one blade seems to have an acceptable level of snap, while the other is a bit anemic. Any chance that it has 2 separate springs in there? Looking in the blade well it appears that it was milled out near the center to receive the blades.

Appreciate everyone's input here, needless to say I'm fairly excited about this one turning back up. I was too young at the time I found it to really appreciate the craftsmanship involved, and the nice character of the handles. At the time I was carrying a modern lock back and thought there was no reason for anything else... Thank goodness I've seen the error of my ways. :p
Click to expand...
I think that's the mystery of it all, that there's no surefire way to predict under what circumstance it will start gassing. With what little I know, a knife could be kept in the same exact condition for years with no problem, but start corroding all of the sudden. The main concern is to store these celluloid way away from the main collection, in relatively well ventilated(not in an enclosed container), dark and dry environment.

Here are two links I found helpful on AAPK and BF a while ago, it's interesting how one of the gents even try putting a celluloid knife in the fridge, to see whether it will halt the process(IIRC, it doesn't)
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?t=21962

Celluloid Knife Handle Deterioration (Out Gassing)

Sorry if this has been covered before, but in light of some talk about celluloid knife handle deterioration on another post, this might be a good topic to re-approach. Celluloid type thermoplastics were developed in the mid 1800s and were commonly used as a knife handle material from the late...
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com

Regardless how you would like to proceed, I am just happy to see the knife finds it's way back in your life, and if it could be passed down to one of the younglings, even better! And I sure hope one day he/she may even discover this page, and continue the discussion with next generation of enthusiasts!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top