Ka-Bar stamped 6G4-5.. what does it mean?

Mygrainman

Mygrainman

Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
40
I recently inherited an old Ka-Bar from my grandfather and I'm trying to find more info. It has 6G4-5 stamped on the guard. I'm guessing the 5 is for 5" blade but the rest?? I took it to a Knife show a few weeks ago and one of the vendors (an avid kabar collector) got really excited about it and offered me $200+ a Spyderco Delica for it... but it's not for sale. A couple things I noticed... there is no patent or patent pending marks below the Ka-Bar stamp... Research shows that it was patented in 1926, and Ka-bar first appeared in '23... does this mean my knife is between '23 and '26? Also there is a very similar knife on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ka-...946?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463a638b32 and it says Reg US Pat off under KA-BAR. It also has 5 pins while mine has 4. There seems to be very little info to distinguish KA-BARs made between '23 and the war. Any ideas? not sure how to add pics but it looks just like the one in the Ebay listing.
 
Your knife says 664-5, not 6G4-5, and that is the model number and blade length. The model name in the old brochures was "Explorer". This model was available from circa 1924 right through WW2, but was discontinued either during or right after the war. They were available in either jigged bone (the first 6 designates that) and in genuine stag (it's first number would be 2) so your knife isn't exactly like the one on ebay since the one on ebay has stag handles and would be a 264-5. They were available in 5,6, and 7" blades with the 7" being very rare. I am surprised the dealer offered you that much since stag is more desirable, and unless dead mint in a mint proper sheath they usually bring a lot less. Since it has the model number on the guard it is likely an earlier knife, say 1924- maybe 1930 or perhaps a little later. They are a fairly common model and one of my favorite patterns with the swell-center handles and full tang construction. I do not know where you found research that shows it being patented in 1926, but there is a lot of misinformation out there. Did you see an actual patent page for this particular knife? Case also had an identical model, but only in 5" and stag with the only difference being the Case has the corners of the butt cap rounded while the KA-BAR has sharp corners. I believe the Case model was made for them on contract by Union Cut. Co./KA-BAR
 
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The one with the tortoise celluloid handles is a WW2 era knife with steel guard and butt cap, the others represent some of the different jigged bone they used, and the rare 7' one is pictured there
 
My knife does have stag handles, an aluminum guard and pommel, and is while not dead mint, it is in excellent condition, and if professionally done could be restored to mint. The stag has no cracks, and the blade no rust or pitting. The sheath may be original, but I can't verify this because I'm not sure what it should look like. I guess I should have been more specific. There are three differences that I see from my knife to the one I linked on eBay. otherwise they look very similar: 1st mine says Olean,N.Y. under UNION CUTLERY CO.... Second, mine does not say "reg us pat off" or anything else under KA-BAR... third the stag scales are attached with 4 pins on mine, while the eBay knife has a fifth pin in the middle of the scales.
I was looking at the stamp under a magnifying glass and I could swear it says 6G4-5... I wish I could post pics but I'm not sure how, the first 6 looks much different from the second digit, and the stamp is very legible. Maybe the guy that stamped it got his 6 and G mixed up... and evidently he messed up and put a 6 instead of a 2 for the first digit, because the scales are most definitely stag, not jiggled bone. The reason I say 1926 as a patent date is I've seen similar knives stamped " patented in 1926". Not sure what is being patented though... I just assumed it was the KA- BAR name.
 
Well, without photos we are somewhat lost. Most certainly your guard and butt plate are not made from aluminum, they are made of nickel silver. I still think your handles will be bone stag rather than real stag, looking at the dozen in my collection the bone knives have four pins and the stag ones have five pins. Or it is possible that somebody re-handled your knife with stag. Again, photos are a MUST when you ask for ID help.
 
Yay! I figured out how to load images! These ought to shed a little light:) I got a really good one of the stamp and as you can see, that is definitely a "G" after the "6". I just assumed the pommel and guard were aluminum. thanks for the correction. Also what would be the difference between "Bone Stag" and the stag denoted by a "2" in the model # stamp? Any info you can give me is very much appreciated. I can usually Google my way around and get myself educated on things, but there seems to be little in the way of info on these early KA-BARs online. I just got into Knife collecting this year after finding some interesting NOS Spyderco's at a local shop, and I've been obsessively researching ever since. This KA-BAR is the oldest and most valuable knife in my collection so far. I tend to target Spyderco folders, and my only other fixed blade is a mint Camillus pilot survival knife stamped 9-84 that my late grandfather bought new and never used... both it and the KA-BAR were given to me by my Grandma a month or so ago when I mentioned my new hobby. They are family heirlooms that will never be sold. In fact when the guy offered the $200 I told my 15 yo son it was up to him if he wanted to sell it(we collect together) and he didn't hesitate to say no... even with all the things $200 would buy a bored teenager... Made me proud:cool:


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I suspect that the "G" is supposed to be a "6" for 2 reasons and a "probably".

1 - I have yet to encounter Gunsil being wrong. May happen someday, but not yet. :D
2 - I can't remember any kabar model numbers with a letter in the MIDDLE of the number (excluding the length designator, e.g., -5, -6, etc). The few models with letters in the model numbers were at the beginning or the end, e.g., the T29 fly fishing knife, the 637F(-5, -6) hunting knife and the P19-S (for stainless steel) Fish Scaler/Cleaver.

The Probably - the model number stamp was "assembled" 1 letter at a time in a frame - you can see how they don't line up exactly the way they would in a pre-made permanent stamp. The "-" and the "5" are high and the "4" is a little low from a center line through the "6" and the "G". The stamp was "probably" assembled incorrectly with a "G" accidentally being used instead of a "6". Either this is a "one off" accident that was allowed to go on out or every 664 made that day went out this way.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
I suspect that the "G" is supposed to be a "6" for 2 reasons and a "probably".

1 - I have yet to encounter Gunsil being wrong. May happen someday, but not yet. :D
2 - I can't remember any kabar model numbers with a letter in the MIDDLE of the number (excluding the length designator, e.g., -5, -6, etc). The few models with letters in the model numbers were at the beginning or the end, e.g., the T29 fly fishing knife, the 637F(-5, -6) hunting knife and the P19-S (for stainless steel) Fish Scaler/Cleaver.

The Probably - the model number stamp was "assembled" 1 letter at a time in a frame - you can see how they don't line up exactly the way they would in a pre-made permanent stamp. The "-" and the "5" are high and the "4" is a little low from a center line through the "6" and the "G". The stamp was "probably" assembled incorrectly with a "G" accidentally being used instead of a "6". Either this is a "one off" accident that was allowed to go on out or every 664 made that day went out this way.
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I'm not in any position to question gunsil's expertise. Mine is very limited when it comes to this knife, or much else for that matter:confused: but if I had to make a guess I'd go with your probably explanation. Keeping in mind that this was the early 20th century and everything was done mostly by hand, the human element is conducive to imperfections. any number of mistakes could have been made... and for little, relatively unimportant details that have nothing to do with how the tool preforms, such as mixing stamps up, or putting a 664-5 guard on a 264-5 knife(not sure if they stamped the guard before or after installing).. Even if someone noticed, it doesn't seem like scrapping the knife and starting over would be worth the trouble or cost, especially when your clientele mainly consisted of hunters that couldn't even spell "kill a bear" right.:D If this knife wasn't produced during prohibition one might even call into question the guy's sobriety that particular day(as if;)). I have no idea how strict they were on quality control back then.. today one little scratch or discoloration and it's a second, but with automation and over seas production they can afford to be picky, and have to be to compete. In my research I did see a picture of a bunch of knives found under a concrete slab at the old Union factory(mostly folders), they weren't sure but assumed they were factory defects, so I wonder what they did with the fixed blades that didn't pass inspection.
I gotta say even if they were a little lax on the stamping(which was probably done by an apprentice or other low paid employee anyway) the quality was not lacking by any stretch. Especially given that this knife is 90 years old+\- and is as solid as the day it was made, and I'm sure it would preform as good or better than any current production 5" hunting knife out there.

If anybody could point me in the direction of references... links to old catalogs, brochures, articles or any other interesting, or informative reads about old KA-BARs(materials used such as blade steel etc., production techniques, different models, and other things to look for when collecting) my son and I are craving more knowledge on the subject, and I've found very little information on the net despite hours of searching. I hate being ignorant about anything... especially something that draws my interest like this does.
 
Wow!! Thanks for the great photos. It is certainly an odd stamp, I think zzyy may be correct that it is a mis-assembled frame stamp or it could be a stamp with the second 6 buggered up from use so it looks like a G. I am not sure if they used assembled stamps or not but it certainly is an error. They used the letter G in stamps to designate a stag butt or pommel which was available on some models. 472G-5 would be a leather or fiber ring handled model 72 with a stag pommel and 5" blade, although the 72 models were stamped with a 5 or 6, their blades were actually 4&1/2" and 5&1/2". I wonder how many were shipped before they discovered the error?. There is a dearth of positive info on old KA-BAR hunters, the factory has very little although I did send them some copies of early hunting knife brochures. A friend and I have possibly the largest collection of pre WW2 brochures and price lists which is where I get my info. It is also possible that your knife being an earlier one (by the numbered guard) that they used five pins a little later on than the four pins on the stag handles. I do not believe it is a "second", just an error which unlike coins will not have an effect on value. Guards were stamped before installation. By the way, they used an O suffix on stamps to designate a stainless steel knife, such as 2720-5, a stag handled, aluminum pommel model 72. Best, Gene
 
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That is a beautiful knife! I considered having mine restored, I showed it to a guy that restores old guns and knives... he said he could make it look like new... the blade has discoloration and some light scratches, but nothing that wouldn't polish out. Like I said from my first post monetary value is irrelevant. This knife will never be sold for any price. It was strapped to my grandfathers leg from the time he got it as a boy living in a sod house on an island in the middle of the Missouri River,now deep under Lake Oahe in South Dakota, until he stopped beating brush well into his 70's. It was used to process hundreds of Deer and Elk(and what ever else he could get a bead on) that were essential to his family's (my mother included) survival. If this knife could talk I'm sure it would have one hell of a story to tell... starting with the day it was made, and shipped to a back woods shop in Sully County SD with the wrong stamp on its guard... waiting for a dirt poor prarie boy to save up enough money to buy it. Every little smudge, nic, and scratch just adds to to its character and inspires me to imagine how it got there, and what it was like to live so modestly and rely so heavily on something as rudimentary as a knife to get by. 99% of people today wouldn't last a week if they had to do what Grandpa did to survive. All they have to do is push a button and they get what ever they need delivered to their doors. It puts in perspective just how "pussified" people have become, and helps remind me not to fall into that trend, and to teach my children not to either. It would be a shame to polish away all that history just to make it shiny.
It's actually amazing it's in as good of shape as it is. Here in the Pacific Northwest, where it has spent the last 60+years, we get enough moisture to make plastic rust... Carbon steel shouldn't stand a chance...but there it was in a box full of old tools and rusty junk under an old work bench in my grandparents dark, dank, musty basement. It sat there for nearly 10 years after grandpa passed, until a few months ago while helping me take care of grandma, my son asked me if I would take him down to explore the basement. All that time in perfect rusting conditions, and when we found it, it only had a tiny bit of surface rust near the guard that came right off with WD-40 and a shop towel. No major pitting, no nics or deep scratches on the blade.. just 90 years worth of natural patina. I'm not going to get it restored but I'm not taking any chances either.. I keep it well oiled and safe from the elements. Years from now when it's handed down to my son's grandson it will be as solid as it was back in the 1920's, just as it is today, and he'll get to hear all about my awesome Grandfather, his hunting knife and its amazing journey from Olean NY, to South Dakota, Oregon, Washington, and where ever it goes from here.
 
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This is just my personal opinion and druthers, but I would NOT have it "polished up like new mint". First off, is that it is a family heirloom and removing the "usage" simply makes it a polished up used knife. Occassional light oiling and dusting is all that is needed. Second, it is obviously used and the use would still be there after polishing. The KABAR stamp and the Olean stamp would end up much less crisp and stand out like a sheep in a cow herd.

I realize many people don't think like me (probably a good thing in some ways :D), but when an old knife is all gussied up trying to make it look brand new, it lowers the appeal to me. I personally hate "Kentucky mint".
 
Ya, I kinda want to slap myself for even thinking about having it done. I just ran into a guy at a show that specialized in restoration and he had some impressive before and after images and he said my knife would be a really good candidate. It was a thought that I didn't entertain for very long. Like I said in my previous post... every little smudge, nic, and scratch has a story behind it, and It would be a shame to polish all that history away. I wouldn't change a single thing about it.
I don't know if you ever watch Pawn Stars, or Antique Road Show, or any shows like that, but when they do appraisals on old guns and blades they are always disappointed if the piece has been polished because it drops the value significantly, unless it was properly restored by a reputable professional. I've seen pieces appraise for 90% less than if they'd had just left it alone. I was actually really leary about taking off a little bit of surface rust right after I found it. Luckily it came off with a shop rag sprayed with a little penetrating oil.
 
What a marvelous piece of history! Take care and enjoy granddad's old KaBar. Use it in good health, because he would probably have wanted it that way.

Captain O
 
Zzy is correct, a restorer cannot replace the sharpened away steel, and it would be very hard if not impossible to return the stag to it's original glory. I'm glad you have decided to leave it as it is since it was used as intended and not left in a drawer somewhere like the mint one I posted above. Steel wool will not scratch the steel of the knife and can be used freely to remove any rust without hurting the knife. The wear and finish deterioration of the stag looks fine and proper for the rest of the knife and should be left as is. In the case of your particular knife cleaning or polishing would not really lower the value since it is a fairly inexpensive knife to find in it's present condition and cleaning will not increase or decrease the value much but you are doing the right thing to leave it basically as your granddad left it to you. Enjoy the daylights out of it and use it if you wish, that is what it was made for!!
 
Beautiful knife! I bet if I could talk it could tell some stories! Thanks for sharing it!
 
Hi My, sorry, I didn't see your post until this morning. I think that knife went pretty cheap myself. I paid twice that for the mint one I posted above. Of course the one on the bay had a messed up sheath and did have some carbon freckling or light pitting, but it did look unused with a full blade.
 
Mygrainman said:
gunsil, is this knife worth $100+$

NEVER MIND.... I was out bid:grumpy:
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1 - at your membership level, it's against the rules to ask "how much" or "what's the value".

2 - it's against the rules to "deal spot" by posting links to vendor sites that are not supporters of this forum, like fleabay.

3 - no wonder you got outbid, you just told every other collector here about it. ;)
 
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