KaBar Dozier with Bad Edge

tim8557

tim8557

Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
878
I have a KaBar Dozier that many have raved about in this forum as a great value. I have no idea as to the steel, but the price was in the $ 20 range so its probably a lower quality steel.

I put a 30 degree bevel on it with my Edge Pro but it doesn't seem to hold an edge very long. I just resharpened it with my Sharpmaker at 30 degrees (it would shave hair) and in simply cutting some packaging rope (probably nylon and about 1/8" thick) and after a half dozen cuts, the edge was gone.

Upon closer inspection, the area of the blade that I cut with and that was now dull now had a burr edge to it.

What am I doing wrong?

As always thanks in advance.

Tim Dowling
 
Try stropping it after you sharpen. This will effectively remove the burr for you.

Some white, or green rouge or even red if that is all you have should effectively take a burr off a blade edge after you apply the polishing medium to the rough side of a leather scrap. Do each side the same number of times and push down relatively hard when doing so keeping the blade angle such that it is flat on the leather as you strop.
 
It could also be that you have a too polished edge. I put my Kabar Doziers the steel is AUS-8 at 56+HRC) through a series of tests on rope (3/8" manila) and was able to cut through the rope around 25 times before it started to slip.
These were knives with an aggressive edge. I have heard of these knives burring before but I haven't had any problems with mine and I believe it is because they have never seen the fine stones.
 
Yeah, you just have to remove the burr when you sharpen. If you have a burr (wire edge) it will shave hair, but when you try to cut something substantial it will roll the burr over. After you finish putting your 30 degree edge on switch to the 40 degree white stones and make a few LIGHT passes. You don't want to put to much pressure on the stones or you'll roll the edge. The 40 degree edge will be more durable and will still shave hair. You will basically remove the burr (hopefully) and put a 40 degree micro bevel edge on your knife.
 
tim8557 said:
I just resharpened it with my Sharpmaker at 30 degrees (it would shave hair) and in simply cutting some packaging rope (probably nylon and about 1/8" thick) and after a half dozen cuts, the edge was gone.
Click to expand...
Does it shave on both sides of the blade after the Sharpmaker?

-Cliff
 
I agree with Wade on all counts,the 40 degree micro bevel and strop regularly will hold the edge much longer.I do this to my harder bladed knives as well to prevent chipping. :D
 
In all the tests I did on these blades I found that the 30 degree edge held up well for a knife of this price and quality. IMO the edge is equal to Spydercos (regarded by many as the best) out of the box. You can put a 40 degree micro bevel on it if you want to but unless you were going to use it for heavy duty I would leave it at 30 degrees.
 
Yeah, the angle isn't the problem, you can go a lot lower than 20 degrees and not expect the edge to dull after a few cuts on rope. Even mild steels are not that bad with a well sharpened edge.

-Cliff
 
JDBLADE said:
It could also be that you have a too polished edge.

As I always finish on my Edge Pro with the Polishing Tapes (I think 3000 grit) I may have the edges too "mirrored".

I'll redo and finish with the 600 stone and see if that helps.

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
A higher polish isn't optimal for slicing aggression, but it should not produce the effects you describe. It sounds to me like the edge had a burr or wire edge on it at the end which was likely biased to one side.

-Cliff
 
STR said:
Try stropping it after you sharpen. This will effectively remove the burr for you.

Some white, or green rouge or even red if that is all you have should effectively take a burr off a blade edge after you apply the polishing medium to the rough side of a leather scrap. Do each side the same number of times and push down relatively hard when doing so keeping the blade angle such that it is flat on the leather as you strop.
Click to expand...

I do always strop after sharpening, but in past threads I got the impression to apply NO pressure, just the weight of the knife at a very flat angle.

I'll try with more pressure....the most damage I can do is to roll the burr, and I think that's my problem to begin with. I may in fact never remove the burr when I'm done sharpening.

I'm 57 now...I think that by the time I reach 70....I'm gonna have this down!

Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
 
When I first started carving wood I took a course on it and I bought books and of course carving knives from Flex Cut and other companies. The instructions that came with the knives as well as the instructor in the course both taught me that for knives on a flat piece of leather pinned to a board that you push down firmly and make the stropping motion keeping the edge down so it contacts the polishing medium on the leather. We were also taught how to make our own wooden strops with various shapes to accomadate the shapes of the different wood carving tools used in carving and whittling.

The main point is that stropping a knife blade is different than stropping a barber shop razor.

Over time this type of flat stropping with firm pressure will of course round off the edge or your knife profile and pretty much convex it which for most carvers means it is time to reprofile the edge and start again wtth a new flat profiled carver like it was when new..
 
tim8557 said:
I do always strop after sharpening, but in past threads I got the impression to apply NO pressure, just the weight of the knife at a very flat angle.
Click to expand...
You need some force to allow the polishing compound to cut, it isn't much though, a pound or less. Using a strop to remove a burr is also really ineffective, this should be done with edge into honing, edge trailing will just push it around and tend to crack it off.

-Cliff
 
The weekend before last, I spent the day sharpening and putting exactly that theory to test. On soft waterstones it is not so easy to increase the angle and go edge into the hone. If you have done well on the previous stones the edge will catch and cut into the stone even at very light pressures (weight of knife). So I tried a trailing stroke and found that on the soft hones it gives a much better results than increasing the angle and use a stroke into the hone. Probably because you avoid plowing. When I am mostly done polishing the edge and go to the final steps I found that building up a burr on your finest stone and then pulling the burr off with something like 3 trailing strokes at a 3-5 deg higher angle with increasing pressure (starting very light and putting a bit more pressure on the blade on the second and third stroke), gave a really good edge.

I know that this sounds almost like blasphemy, after all, everybody knows that trailing strokes are to be avoided, but it works for me. Actually, I don't really do a real trailing stroke. I skew the blade a bit and pull towards the handle as well, so the stroke is actually almost along the edge but still slightly trailing.

Again all of this pertains only to very soft waterstones. I don't think it matters on a ceramic hone.
 
You know that is a good point Hob. I know a really great carver here in my home town. He does some of the most detailed and fantastic wood carvings I've ever seen. He sharpens his knives using a swirling pattern and they get sharp as all get out.

I don't think there really is a right or wrong way. If it works for you and the end result is a razor sharp edge with a great cutting geometry you can't ask for more than that.
 
HoB said:
On soft waterstones it is not so easy to increase the angle and go edge into the hone. If you have done well on the previous stones the edge will catch and cut into the stone even at very light pressures (weight of knife).
Click to expand...
Are these natural hones? Brand? I use waterstones, most are cheap though and none are natural.

When I am mostly done polishing the edge and go to the final steps I found that building up a burr on your finest stone and then pulling the burr off with something like 3 trailing strokes at a 3-5 deg higher angle with increasing pressure (starting very light and putting a bit more pressure on the blade on the second and third stroke), gave a really good edge.
Click to expand...
Which steel? With high quality steels and solid heat treatments which are prone to little burr formation you usually don't need to be concerned about it at all and can hone without a second thought to burrs usually. When I am convexing edges on sandpaper, for most of my blades it is all edge trailing.

However occasionally I will be honing a soft steel, or a very worn or weakened edge and a large burr will form after the shaping step. Edge trailing continued tends to do little to remove this, I cut it off with a fine hone at a high angle and then go back to sandpaper honing.

Most of the careful anti-burr methods which Jeff has described in detail are only necessary on lower end knives or steels which combine a high wear resistance and low hardness.

I know that this sounds almost like blasphemy
Click to expand...
Yes, and you shall burn in the hell of upside down sinners!

STR said:
...using a swirling pattern
Click to expand...
That is one of the worst ways to sharpen, you put scratch lines right along the edge running parallel to it, this severely weakens it. It is more of a concern if you leave the edge at a rougher finish as it also doesn't create the aggressive tooth pattern you are looking for there as well. I use it often though as a shaping step as you are just forming there not honing.

-Cliff
 
Hi Cliff,

"Most of the careful anti-burr methods which Jeff has described in detail"

Can you post the link to a thread where Jeff talks about this. I am still learning about burring and deburring.

Thanks very much.
 
HoB said:
The weekend before last, I spent the day sharpening and putting exactly that theory to test. On soft waterstones it is not so easy to increase the angle and go edge into the hone. If you have done well on the previous stones the edge will catch and cut into the stone even at very light pressures (weight of knife). So I tried a trailing stroke and found that on the soft hones it gives a much better results than increasing the angle and use a stroke into the hone. Probably because you avoid plowing. When I am mostly done polishing the edge and go to the final steps I found that building up a burr on your finest stone and then pulling the burr off with something like 3 trailing strokes at a 3-5 deg higher angle with increasing pressure (starting very light and putting a bit more pressure on the blade on the second and third stroke), gave a really good edge.

I know that this sounds almost like blasphemy, after all, everybody knows that trailing strokes are to be avoided, but it works for me. Actually, I don't really do a real trailing stroke. I skew the blade a bit and pull towards the handle as well, so the stroke is actually almost along the edge but still slightly trailing.

Again all of this pertains only to very soft waterstones. I don't think it matters on a ceramic hone.
Click to expand...
There is nothing wrong with a trailing stroke... People who put convex edges on their knives with stones use it all the time...
Also ask some REAL old-timers to show you how they sharpen knives... Most of them used trailing strokes... I think the leading stroke started becoming popular when the Boy Scout handbook said to do it that way!

If I remember correctly, Katanas are sharpened trailing stroke... Any Katana experts reading this???
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top