Kata, martial arts and miscellanea

Can someone explain the "spiritual component" of martial arts? My uncle has volunteered to pay for martial arts as long as the have some sort of "spirituality" with them. So boxing, krav maga, and any sort of "combat" martial art is out, because they're "to violent", along with a complete absence of "spirituality" "self discovery" and a ton of other crap. I was wondering if there was any sort of practical, real world basis for this?
 
@JW bensinger, as you well know I will be first in line if you make a nice sword cane, though I am still paying on that first job, you know I have an endless list of things for you to do as my cash allows-- my mandau will come down next year after I get your down payment together :D-- your skill is self evident.

the main real world basis I could think of for "spiritual" components to combat, is the total stillness of emotion, not getting angry, just doing what must be -- anger makes mistakes, simple as that, if you ever get mad in a fight you are at a disadvantage from the guy who keeps a clear head and can make choices based on need rather than emotion. not for all things of course, but just a guess, as I am not a martial artist but I am a "spiritualist" :D
 
syco1138 said:
Can someone explain the "spiritual component" of martial arts? My uncle has volunteered to pay for martial arts as long as the have some sort of "spirituality" with them. So boxing, krav maga, and any sort of "combat" martial art is out, because they're "to violent", along with a complete absence of "spirituality" "self discovery" and a ton of other crap. I was wondering if there was any sort of practical, real world basis for this?
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Spirituality in Martial Arts is the "internal" learning of the art. The physical aspects of the Martial Arts is what students first learn, learning to meditate, or to fully, and wholly understand the physical movement in of itself, is the spiritual part. Indeed, most practitioners never really truly hit that "enlightenment" spiritual phase unless they very serious about their art, as in that is all they ever do all day, everyday.

Most martial arts rooted in a culture, will have some sort of spiritual component. To answer your question, "I was wondering if there was any sort of practical, real world basis for this?", I answer, "yes". A martial art without any spiritual or ritual aspect is an Art without soul. Same as a mass machine made KLO vs a HI hand forged khukuri. Martial Arts is meant to nourish the Mind, Body, and the Soul.

That's just my thoughts. If the only thing you want to learn is how to fight, ask yourself this question, "why?". It's just as easy to carry a can of pepper spray, a knife, gun, etc...., if you just want to "hurt" people, it sure is easier and less trouble than learning a martial art.
 
Cul has identified my views incredibly accurately. For me I always look within the cultural context of Chinese martial arts. This context is usually referred to as “Chinese philosophy”, but actually is learning knowledge, ALL knowledge – such knowledge that can raise one above people who do not understand it. Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. This study usually indicates search for additional knowledge. Learning and adapting the perception to an existing ancient knowledge possessed of moral and social quality is in the core of Chinese tradition.

Therefore, the ambition of the Chinese martial arts practitioner to make the art part of his life includes motives of the Chinese culture and interpretation according to his own faith and culture. A Western student like myself may choose to learn the Art as the whole package, or as was described earlier in this thread, they might only look to learn the techniques not the Art. But to other students (predominantly Asian students but not exclusively), the Art is usually part of their heritage, part of their social identity so the Art is a whole, not 2 parts that can be separated one from the other.

Why should you learn them? They are intrinsic to the depth of the learning you will be able to attain. Until you understand the whole of the Art you will never truely master the techniques though you can become VERY good at them, they will still only ever be a tool you use, never a part of who you are.
 
interesting! I am very familiar with the tao and most "spiritual" beliefs of various cultures; I think it would be pretty easy to find a spiritual component in the western martial arts as well, but it is not so intrinsic as in the east-- for a long time utility has been the primary spirit of the west. would be cool to hear from anyone into the european martial arts to chime in about any "philosophical" aspects to fighting with a claymore or using plate armor :D
 
Shavru said:
Cul has identified my views incredibly accurately. For me I always look within the cultural context of Chinese martial arts. This context is usually referred to as “Chinese philosophy”, but actually is learning knowledge, ALL knowledge – such knowledge that can raise one above people who do not understand it. Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. This study usually indicates search for additional knowledge. Learning and adapting the perception to an existing ancient knowledge possessed of moral and social quality is in the core of Chinese tradition.

Therefore, the ambition of the Chinese martial arts practitioner to make the art part of his life includes motives of the Chinese culture and interpretation according to his own faith and culture. A Western student like myself may choose to learn the Art as the whole package, or as was described earlier in this thread, they might only look to learn the techniques not the Art. But to other students (predominantly Asian students but not exclusively), the Art is usually part of their heritage, part of their social identity so the Art is a whole, not 2 parts that can be separated one from the other.

Why should you learn them? They are intrinsic to the depth of the learning you will be able to attain. Until you understand the whole of the Art you will never truely master the techniques though you can become VERY good at them, they will still only ever be a tool you use, never a part of who you are.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing, I value philosophy, very slightly less than art. I'm not exactly a spiritual sort. I find the entire thing pointless and pedantic. If I'm going to devote my time to learning a martial art, I want it to be a practical, combat oriented martial art, not one that will waste my time with learning how different animals teach me less effective ways to damage someone. I consider the whole purpose of any martial art to be learning how to fight more effectively.
 
then those martial arts designed by special forces are probably best for you?
 
syco1138 said:
Here's the thing, I value philosophy, very slightly less than art. I'm not exactly a spiritual sort. I find the entire thing pointless and pedantic. If I'm going to devote my time to learning a martial art, I want it to be a practical, combat oriented martial art, not one that will waste my time with learning how different animals teach me less effective ways to damage someone. I consider the whole purpose of any martial art to be learning how to fight more effectively.
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Then you have already answered your question. Your are not looking for a Martial Art, you have no interest to learn the "Art", that is why the word "art" is in "Martial Arts".

Gehazi is correct, learning a MMA military style may be what you are looking for, or as stated earlier in the thread, pay a martial arts school to teach you technique as quickly as possible, and earn them belts!

Truthfully, I am usually quite cordial, but I am perplexed as to why would you ask the question about the spiritual side in Martial Arts, if you really have no interest? Is it because you feel better ragging on those individuals who do respect the world of Martial Arts, as it should be as a whole?

OK....time to do a 10 minute meditation exercise to cool down...:)
 
Syco1138,
Here is the thing You can learn whatever part of the martial arts you feel are correct for you. Since you value philosophy so little the reality is that you would be incapable of learning it anyways. Though in truth there is no such thing as a practical, combat oriented martial art without the philosophy and culture, most especially Krav Maga (I can tell you as a Graduate-3) that you quote. You can find what you seek in many American style training schools, but what you seek will always be nothing more than a faded image of the reality of the Art. Learning to fight more effectively is not just learning to place hand 1 here and foot 2 there it is a way of thinking, it completely changes who you are and how you act and react and without that and looking inside why foot 1 goes in this place and hand 2 moves here you will never understand any martial Art well enough to truely master it. Oh and I have never seen any martial art use different animals to teach less effective ways to damage someone. The movement of animals is the most efficient movement possible for an given activity. Studying an animal's movements will actually provide insight into MORE effective not less.

Gehazi should you REALLY be interested here is a link to the Meditatio et Contemplation article by HEMA/ARMA author John Clements on The Role of Personal Self-Reflection in the Study of Renaissance Martial Arts, to quote...

"Whether by communion with a higher power or through pure introspection independent of metaphysical assumption, warriors throughout history have invoked forms of internal dialogue or external group ritual to process their sense of self and their identity or role as fighting men. The scene of a knightly candidate on vigil... awake, stationary, silent, peaceful, mentally and emotionally focused upon the beliefs that sustain him in his upcoming ordeal... is a familiar concept within chivalric literature. It was a feature directly borrowed from monastic culture"

http://www.thearma.org/essays/meditatio.html
 
Shavru said:
You can learn whatever part of the martial arts you feel are correct for you. Since you value philosophy so little the reality is that you would be incapable of learning it anyways. Though in truth there is no such thing as a practical, combat oriented martial art without the philosophy and culture.
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So very true, and to the point. Thank you Shavru.
 
cul4u01 said:
Then you have already answered your question. Your are not looking for a Martial Art, you have no interest to learn the "Art", that is why the word "art" is in "Martial Arts".

Gehazi is correct, learning a MMA military style may be what you are looking for, or as stated earlier in the thread, pay a martial arts school to teach you technique as quickly as possible, and earn them belts!

Truthfully, I am usually quite cordial, but I am perplexed as to why would you ask the question about the spiritual side in Martial Arts, if you really have no interest? Is it because you feel better ragging on those individuals who do respect the world of Martial Arts, as it should be as a whole?

OK....time to do a 10 minute meditation exercise to cool down...:)
Click to expand...

The reason I asked was because the guy who's willing to pay for my classes values philosophy and spiritualism very highly and I was trying to understand why and if there was any practical reason why. Also I have no interest in belts, I care about learning to fight.
 
Shavru said:
Syco1138,
Here is the thing You can learn whatever part of the martial arts you feel are correct for you. Since you value philosophy so little the reality is that you would be incapable of learning it anyways. Though in truth there is no such thing as a practical, combat oriented martial art without the philosophy and culture, most especially Krav Maga (I can tell you as a Graduate-3) that you quote. You can find what you seek in many American style training schools, but what you seek will always be nothing more than a faded image of the reality of the Art. Learning to fight more effectively is not just learning to place hand 1 here and foot 2 there it is a way of thinking, it completely changes who you are and how you act and react and without that and looking inside why foot 1 goes in this place and hand 2 moves here you will never understand any martial Art well enough to truely master it. Oh and I have never seen any martial art use different animals to teach less effective ways to damage someone. The movement of animals is the most efficient movement possible for an given activity. Studying an animal's movements will actually provide insight into MORE effective not less.

Gehazi should you REALLY be interested here is a link to the Meditatio et Contemplation article by HEMA/ARMA author John Clements on The Role of Personal Self-Reflection in the Study of Renaissance Martial Arts, to quote...

"Whether by communion with a higher power or through pure introspection independent of metaphysical assumption, warriors throughout history have invoked forms of internal dialogue or external group ritual to process their sense of self and their identity or role as fighting men. The scene of a knightly candidate on vigil... awake, stationary, silent, peaceful, mentally and emotionally focused upon the beliefs that sustain him in his upcoming ordeal... is a familiar concept within chivalric literature. It was a feature directly borrowed from monastic culture"

http://www.thearma.org/essays/meditatio.html
Click to expand...

I have come to the conclusion that animal based stances used in kung fu and like martial arts are less effective than the basic boxers or pugilists stance based off my observations of things like professional fighting, modern martial arts and USMC training manuals/demonstrations. If they were more effective than the basic fighting stance, wouldn't they be used by people who's lives (or paychecks) depend on fighting?
 
Again I will quote John Clements, a Western Martial Artist (traditional broadsword).

Warrior, know thyself!

Martial spirit, the sense of being a warrior, exists only by acceptance of a code that recognizes when and where and what it is right to fight. This is no mere willingness to fight, nor just ability to fight, but something more. It requires deep reflective thought. It requires self-assessment. To discover and commit to reaching such values, it comes into being only through some personal process of meditation and contemplation. Silent, solitary, guided self-reflection. The standard thought is that no combatant should fight in anger nor fight from fear. How else does one consider such matters without contemplation? How does an individual come to summon and channel such fortitude without effort in meditation? Indeed, the wisdom and prudence necessary to a good fighter are qualities that must be discovered in the self by the self. Paulus Kal's treatise of 1470 reveals that the fighter should have a clear head and strong heart in order to perceive his adversary's intentions. How does one learn to practice this without some means of processing it with that most mysterious part of our neurological makeup we call the brain?
 
syco1138 said:
I have come to the conclusion that animal based stances used in kung fu and like martial arts are less effective than the basic boxers or pugilists stance based off my observations of things like professional fighting, modern martial arts and USMC training manuals/demonstrations. If they were more effective than the basic fighting stance, wouldn't they be used by people who's lives (or paychecks) depend on fighting?
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Quite untrue, but since you aren't interested in the philosophies, you would be hard pressed to understand, or accept; thus, spending the time to explain is pointless.
 
syco1138 said:
I have come to the conclusion that animal based stances used in kung fu and like martial arts are less effective than the basic boxers or pugilists stance based off my observations of things like professional fighting, modern martial arts and USMC training manuals/demonstrations. If they were more effective than the basic fighting stance, wouldn't they be used by people who's lives (or paychecks) depend on fighting?
Click to expand...

Quite simply, No, Boxers and pugilists ALWAYS lose competition to a trained martial artist. I have never seen one even walk out of the ring and I have seen some try. Your "Basic fighting stance" is all you can teach the average person in the short time they have to train military personnel. It is not the be all end all, it is an acceptable minimum. For that matter US military does not teach "hand a hand" fighting anymore and haven't in many years. They teach minimum requirements. believe me, I have been through it as have others here.

I have come to determine that you are acting like a troll just for the fun of it. Learn what you wish, you would not gain anything from the arts because you would not learn it anyways since it doesn't interest you.
 
Shavru said:
Again I will quote John Clements, a Western Martial Artist (traditional broadsword).

Warrior, know thyself!

Martial spirit, the sense of being a warrior, exists only by acceptance of a code that recognizes when and where and what it is right to fight. This is no mere willingness to fight, nor just ability to fight, but something more. It requires deep reflective thought. It requires self-assessment. To discover and commit to reaching such values, it comes into being only through some personal process of meditation and contemplation. Silent, solitary, guided self-reflection. The standard thought is that no combatant should fight in anger nor fight from fear. How else does one consider such matters without contemplation? How does an individual come to summon and channel such fortitude without effort in meditation? Indeed, the wisdom and prudence necessary to a good fighter are qualities that must be discovered in the self by the self. Paulus Kal's treatise of 1470 reveals that the fighter should have a clear head and strong heart in order to perceive his adversary's intentions. How does one learn to practice this without some means of processing it with that most mysterious part of our neurological makeup we call the brain?
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So what you're saying is that we each have a personal code of conduct that we need to sort out from the muddle that is our mind? 'Cause I've been working on doing that for some time now. Any advice would be much appreciated.
 
thanks for link shav, It seems as though a mental prep is always in order for actual combat, it is such an emotional thing to have someone try to kill you, I can see the value of monastic stoicism etc as the author in the link points out " warrior in reflection" is not a thought out of fancy, but necessity.?? then again I think the point is to be free of thought and pure of intent and focus.( of spirituality in war)

though if you are too intentional they can see you coming-- just ask a house fly, if you think about hitting them you can never catch them, you have to make the fly think you are not going to swat it , then you can catch him( maybe my housefly is a special psychic housefly though, pretty sure he got up the last few times I hit him anyway)
 
Shavru said:
Quite simply, No, Boxers and pugilists ALWAYS lose competition to a trained martial artist. I have never seen one even walk out of the ring and I have seen some try. Your "Basic fighting stance" is all you can teach the average person in the short time they have to train military personnel. It is not the be all end all, it is an acceptable minimum. For that matter US military does not teach "hand a hand" fighting anymore and haven't in many years. They teach minimum requirements. believe me, I have been through it as have others here.

I have come to determine that you are acting like a troll just for the fun of it. Learn what you wish, you would not gain anything from the arts because you would not learn it anyways since it doesn't interest you.
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I'm actually genuinely confused by drawing influence from animals. Their particular methods are best suited to their musculature and anatomy, not ours. I can see drawing "lessons" so to speak from them but trying to fight like them seems like it's not the brightest move.

These are some of my favorite videos of kung fu (and a few other similar disciplines) fighters against MMA fighters. I hope you find them as enlightening as I have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031EnfiDrSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd1KDz1X7iE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3efaX5GCQxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
 
well if you are looking for the most effective method of winning combat, I suggest gun-fu, as a 5 year old can win against the biggest baddest MMA fighter on earth, without fail, every time (as long as his gun fu is strong)--
I mean to me, all combat that is physical person on person contact certainly needs a spiritual aspect as it is entirely useless in the modern world on every level other than a philosophical one. much the same way you see the spiritual aspect as useless, to me it is the only meaningful use of the hobby, as I cannot see how the physical aspect of being a better fighter has any meaning in a world with firearms.
because it certainly doesnt make you the most effective combatant, technology does that better than any training ever could :D

I mean I realize humans are humans, but that should help you conceptualize the why of spirituality in anything; simply think of all life and efforts as meaningless and a nothingness: then make it worth your time. ( just my idea there, not sure if it is really why spirituality becomes necessary to some people like myself, also I hear frogs and trees talk , and the world is always singing; so a healthy dose of schizophrenia is probably best for a very strong spirituality like my own)
 
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syco1138 said:
I'm actually genuinely confused by drawing influence from animals. Their particular methods are best suited to their musculature and anatomy, not ours. I can see drawing "lessons" so to speak from them but trying to fight like them seems like it's not the brightest move.

These are some of my favorite videos of kung fu (and a few other similar disciplines) fighters against MMA fighters. I hope you find them as enlightening as I have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031EnfiDrSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd1KDz1X7iE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3efaX5GCQxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
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Enlightening??? You mean a joke.

Get a gun, it's more your speed. Honestly, I would use mine too, to bad for possible assailants though, because I'm ready for anything short of a gunfight as well.
 
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