Katana Questions

69_knives

69_knives

Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
1,855
I'm going to forge my first sword tomorrow and just have a question or two as I've never actually held a real one or even a modern interpretation of one.

I don't really like the abrupt angled tip of the katana so the tip will be more like a Wakizashi but it will be katana length of at least 24" blade. I'm not even sure if I know what I'm talking about here, but I know that the kissaki doesn't really do it for me, I like a more rounded shape at the tip. I'm kinda warming up to the shape of the kissaki though.

My questions are about blade cross section shape, thickness and width.

I've answered some of my questions about cross section shape by looking at pics of Habaki and Seppa but what I don't know is what the ideal width and thickness should be, say, in front of the habaki.

Is there even an idela width and thickness or is that something that is solely at the discretion of the maker/smith?

One other thing, if I want the handle to be around 15" what would the ideal tang length be?



Thanks for any replies.

Steve
 
OK, It will take about three days to answer that.....three month to understand the answer, and three years to get it all worked out.
The short answer is:

The kissaki is the point/tip, nothing more. It can be any shape you desire. If it is short and stubby, it is Ko-kissaki ; medium is chu-kissaki ; long is O-kissaki. It can go to insane length, where half the blade is the kissaki. This is called osoraku-zukuri. I ,too, like the O-kissaki. It can be made as a continuous curve, and have no distinct point where the kissaki meets the hasaki (cutting edge). BTW, The spot where they meet is called the yokote. In a hira-zukuri blade ( flat sides to the spine) a continuous curve from the kissaki is popular.

The blade cross section is measured at the habaki and at the kissaki ( where the yokote meets the shinogi. This is the mitsukado - "three corners") This measurement is called the kasane. It can be rather thin, or very thick. I have make swords with the motokasane ( thickness at the habaki) 3/8". 1/4" is a good starting place.
The thickness at the kissaki ( sakikasane) is usually less, up to half the motokasane on swords with a lot of taper. The general way the thickness forms is in the filing/grinding. The taper just flows forward, and the thickness is what it is. Just don't make the tip too thin....after all, this is a sword.

The nakago ( tang) can be very short or longer. I use about an 8" nakago on a 24" nagasa ( edge length) katana. I would say the range would be from 6-10" on a 15" tsuka (handle).

The blade cross section has many shapes. The standard that many people think of when one says "Katana" is shinogi-zukuri (ridge sided). It has a ridge line along the blade that separates the cutting edge ( ji) from the mune (spine ). The other common shape is hira-zukuri ( flat sided). This is the easiest to make in the begining. To the non-Japanese sword folk, it appears to be a long knife with a convex grind. There is far more than that involved, but the simplicity of not having to deal with shaping the shinogi is a real plus on your first katana.

Just so you know what you will be making here are your specs:
shoto katana, O-kissaki ( short katana with long point)
Hira-zukuri (blade sides go all the way to the spine)
nagasa - 2 shaku ( blade 24")
nakago - 8 sun (tang 8")
motokasane - .25 sun ( thickness at the habaki, 1/4")

A lot of good info can be found in these links:
http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_vis_glossary.html
http://www.samuraisword.com/glossary/index.htm
http://www.japaneseswordsltd.com/glossary.html
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/index.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~jeshern/makingsteelintro.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/togishi.htm
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/japaneseintroduction.htm
http://www.montanairon.com/tsukamaki.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/tlbuck/tsuka/tsuka.htm
http://www.nihonzashi.com/sword_dictionary.aspx ( DIY Guides and Sword dictionary)

There, that should keep you busy for a few hours.
Stacy
 
Last edited:
bladsmth said:
OK, It will take about three days to answer that.....three month to understand the answer, and three years to get it all worked out.
The short answer is:

The kissaki is the point/tip, nothing more. It can be any shape you desire. If it is short and stubby, it is Ko-kissaki ; medium is chu-kissaki ; long is O-kissaki. It can go to insane length, where half the blade is the kissaki. This is called osoraku-zukuri. I ,too, like the O-kissaki. It can be made as a continuous curve, and have no distinct point where the kissaki meets the hasaki (cutting edge). BTW, The spot where they meet is called the yokote. In a hira-zukuri blade ( flat sides to the spine) a continuous curve from the kissaki is popular.

The blade cross section is measured at the habaki and at the kissaki ( where the yokote meets the shinogi. This is the mitsukado - "three corners") This measurement is called the kasane. It can be rather thin, or very thick. I have make swords with the motokasane ( thickness at the habaki) 3/8". 1/4" is a good starting place.
The thickness at the kissaki ( sakikasane) is usually less, up to half the motokasane on swords with a lot of taper. The general way the thickness forms is in the filing/grinding. The taper just flows forward, and the thickness is what it is. Just don't make the tip too thin....after all, this is a sword.

The nakago ( tang) can be very short or longer. I use about an 8" nakago on a 24" nagasa ( edge length) katana. I would say the range would be from 6-10" on a 15" tsuka (handle).

The blade cross section has many shapes. The standard that many people think of when one says "Katana" is shinogi-zukuri (ridge sided). It has a ridge line along the blade that separates the cutting edge ( ji) from the mune (spine ). The other common shape is hira-zukuri ( flat sided). This is the easiest to make in the begining. To the non-Japanese sword folk, it appears to be a long knife with a convex grind. There is far more than that involved, but the simplicity of not having to deal with shaping the shinogi is a real plus on your first katana.

Just so you know what you will be making here are your specs:
shoto katana, O-kissaki ( short katana with long point)
Hira-zukuri (blade sides go all the way to the spine)
nagasa - 2 shaku ( blade 24")
nakago - 8 sun (tang 8")
motokasane - .25 sun ( thickness at the habaki, 1/4")

A lot of good info can be found in these links:
http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_vis_glossary.html
http://www.samuraisword.com/glossary/index.htm
http://www.japaneseswordsltd.com/glossary.html
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/index.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~jeshern/makingsteelintro.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/togishi.htm
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/japaneseintroduction.htm
http://www.montanairon.com/tsukamaki.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/tlbuck/tsuka/tsuka.htm
http://www.nihonzashi.com/sword_dictionary.aspx ( DIY Guides and Sword dictionary)

There, that should keep you busy for a few hours.
Stacy
Click to expand...



That's a GREAT rundown Stacy, :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I spent a LONG time poking around those links when I started, great stuff.
 
Thanks, Stacy, for your excellent input on yet another newb sword thread.

I've been reading some of those links from your previous posts, I just wasn't able to find the specific answers I was looking for. That last link is excellent!

One more question, for now.

Would it be worthwhile trying to get natural sori from water quenching W2 or should I just forge it in and oil quench.

If I were to water quench, I would build 2 troughs one for water/brine and one for my fast oil, quench into the water for 1,2,3, then out,2,3 then into the warmed oil for another few seconds then check for straightness then back into the oil .

Would this process even be likely to produce sori?

I know that ultimately the decision will be mine to make based on risk vs. reward and I would like to make that decision based on as much info as possible.
 
Brine is a good quench to obtain sori and a very active hamon. If you are using 1060-1070, I would say go for it. You will loose more blades, but the thrill of watching the sword bend down, and then up.....along with that indescribable groan...is worth a few broken/cracked blades. If you are using W1,W2, 1095, then I would forge in the sori and oil quench in the fastest oil you have. The hamon will be a tad less active, but there is much less risk. I do not water quench swords. I do water quench tanto sometimes.

One note:
Straighten the sword as much as possible while it is between 900F and 400F. You can use foundry gloves or tongs. Use a wooden mallet and hammer the blade on a piece of wood laid on the anvil. Another good straightening jig is a board with a 1/4" slot cut in it, clamped in a vise. Slip the hot blade in the slot at the warp/bend/twist and straighten. Any residual straightening should be done after tempering. You can remove most anything with slow and steady pressure on a tempered blade. The wooden slot board works well here,too. The Japanese smiths make two slotted pieces of wood ( that look for all the world like wheel barrow handles) with the slots about two inches from the ends and at 90 degrees to the length of the wood. You put the blade in the two slots, one on each side of the bend/warp/twist, and lever the handles in or out to correct the problem.

Stacy
 
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Forging it is! I trust your advice, Stacy.

I didn't get to the forge yesterday due to the heavy wet snow all morning but I think I better get down there today and warm up the anvil... it's only 22F, not too bad :)
 
Next time I get the idea that I'm going to forge down 1.25" square material by hand somebody slap the crap out of me, please.
 
69_knives said:
Next time I get the idea that I'm going to forge down 1.25" square material by hand somebody slap the crap out of me, please.
Click to expand...

duly noted


:):):)

been there, it sucks, i got a 12 Lb sledge and had my brother hold while I struck, takes a lot of sweat but you can do it
 
Yeah, I picked up a 10 pounder and rounded one face into a peen just for the task. It worked pretty well but man that is a lot of hammering.
 
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