Katana source

Timo,
Yes, I stand corrected. I did confuse the terms as I am used to using the Shinsakuto term of real or newly made swords. I should have said the Iaito did not fall under the ministry of culture. You rarely see the term Shinken used in collecting circles, where Shinsakuto is used almost exclusively. Whereas in Martial Arts circles it seems just the opposite is true. ?? I was under the impression that Shinken while being real swords may be produced at different quality levels. Though, I confess this is totally outside my focus of study, and I am not at all sure about this. Perhaps you can elaborate. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
SouthernComfort said:
Timo,
Yes, I stand corrected. I did confuse the terms as I am used to using the Shinsakuto term of real or newly made swords. I should have said the Iaito did not fall under the ministry of culture. You rarely see the term Shinken used in collecting circles, where Shinsakuto is used almost exclusively. Whereas in Martial Arts circles it seems just the opposite is true. ?? I was under the impression that Shinken while being real swords may be produced at different quality levels. Though, I confess this is totally outside my focus of study, and I am not at all sure about this. Perhaps you can elaborate. Thanks for clarifying that.
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A shinken is a real sword as opposed to a boken, a stick sword.

The way you were using shinken before was, as you mentioned, incorrect. I am no expert but have usually seen shinken used as a term to contrast iaido. Basically shinken = sharp sword (real sword)
Iaido = blunt for practice.
 
Yes, I am aware that Iaito is a blunt practice sword. The terms Shinken and Shinsakuto seem a bit blurred to me as to their exact differences if any. I will ask a friend who is much more knowledgeable than I to address this.
 
Is there any difficulty in getting a sword from a licensed smith getting shipped/exported out of Japan?
 
Shinken as mentioned simply means a "real sword" as opposed to a "practice sword", or mogito.

Gendaito means "modern sword" as opposed to a koto or "old sword". A shinken can be modern (gendaito) or old (koto).

A "shinsakuto" is a newly made sword. All shinsakuto are gendaito but not all gendaito are considered shinsakuto. Exactly when a sword ceases to be a shinsakuto and is only considered a gendaito is not clearly defined but perhaps once a period of time, maybe 20 years or so, has elapsed since the sword was made, it wouldn't be referred to as a shinsakuto any longer.
 
No, there is no problem exporting Japanese swords. There is a process which takes a couple of weeks. This is to de-license the sword in conformation with Japanese regulations. Japanese dealers, if shipping outside Japan will almost always comply with this rule. Sometimes tourists don't bother with this, which is why you see the license or Torokusho being sold with them or listed with them as papers, which they are not.
 
SouthernComfort said:
You rarely see the term Shinken used in collecting circles, where Shinsakuto is used almost exclusively. Whereas in Martial Arts circles it seems just the opposite is true. ?? I was under the impression that Shinken while being real swords may be produced at different quality levels.
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Yes, shinken is martial arts terminology. Given that all nihonto, whether old, gendaito or shinsakuto are shinken, it isn't useful for collectors. For martial artists in Japan, it's useful since it distinguishes sharp swords from iaito which, in Japan, are all mogito ("imitation swords") and therefore not real swords. (Not all mogito are iaito - some are decorative rather than training swords.)

AIUI, in Japan, swords intended for martial arts use are often left with a more basic polish since that's cheaper and the swords will tend to get scuffed/scratched in use. So definitely a different level of quality in finish.

Outside Japan, the terms don't mean the same thing, since shinken then includes all of the Chinese-made and other non-Japanese sharp katana, and non-traditionally made gunto. Also (blunt) steel iaito mean that iaito aren't exclusively mogito (in the Japanese usage of mogito). Steel iaito seem to live in some ill-defined space between mogito and shinken - not quite imitation and not quite real.
 
Bottom line, if you want something genuine you can do so outside Japan. Many genuine Nihonto reside in the US. The key to not getting ripped off is to use a known and respected dealer.
 
Alberta Ed said:
Here's another useful site on Japanese swords: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm
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That was Rich Steins site. Rich was a good friend and I remember when this site was cutting edge for information in English. He is now deceased and many of the links no longer work. However, there is still good information to be found there. Some is a bit outdated, but much of the basics do not change.
 
NihontoEd said:
That was Rich Steins site. Rich was a good friend and I remember when this site was cutting edge for information in English. He is now deceased and many of the links no longer work. However, there is still good information to be found there. Some is a bit outdated, but much of the basics do not change.
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Darn didn't know that or managed to forget it.😔

His was literally one of the first sites I came across when I got into swords and before I started focusing on medieval European weaponry.
 
Any one know that a steel sword has been illegal to make in Japan since 1946-8?
They can only make practice blades and boken.

We have two of those crappy Chinese made swords. One is a Last Legends supreme cutter, and the other is a shobu Zukuri by Bugei Imports.
Made by Japanese sword smiths, in the Hanwei Plant, in China.
Either one is worth over a grand, so I do not think I would call them cheap, nor crappy.
You can not buy either one now, so Im thinking they might be worth way more.

Small Japanese lesson:
Bento in Japanese means Lunch Box, so when you go to eat and see Bento Box, it means lunch box box.
Katana in Japanese means sword, so katana sword means, sword sword.

I studied sword under the same master for almost two decades until he had to go back to Japan to rebuild the temple for the clan.
 
Lovebell Forrest said:
Any one know that a steel sword has been illegal to make in Japan since 1946-8?
They can only make practice blades and boken.

We have two of those crappy Chinese made swords. One is a Last Legends supreme cutter, and the other is a shobu Zukuri by Bugei Imports.
Made by Japanese sword smiths, in the Hanwei Plant, in China.
Either one is worth over a grand, so I do not think I would call them cheap, nor crappy.
You can not buy either one now, so Im thinking they might be worth way more.

Small Japanese lesson:
Bento in Japanese means Lunch Box, so when you go to eat and see Bento Box, it means lunch box box.
Katana in Japanese means sword, so katana sword means, sword sword.

I studied sword under the same master for almost two decades until he had to go back to Japan to rebuild the temple for the clan.
Click to expand...


QFP
 
The katana and sword situation in Japan in the 1950's was very similar to the Bowie, Dirk, and Switchblade laws enacted in the USA at that time. Such knives were banned completely. It has only been in recent years that these strict laws have been softened or eliminated. Even with the laws in place, in the USA private possession for collection was pretty much ignored. Unless the weapon was used in a crime, or possessed by a suspected criminal, they were ignored by the authorities.

A little known fact is that carrying a sword in the USA is also illegal. There are exceptions for military parades, military dress wear, cultural use, and re-enactors. But, wear one to the mall for fun ... and you will get arrested and likely go to jail. IIRC, Europe is even stricter on swords.

From my memory about Japan:
The total ban on production/posession was from 1945 to 1958.
In 1958, Japan passed a new sword and firearm law. It bans swords and guns from privet ownership. Katana is thus regulated like guns. Permits are required to make them and own them. These permits are nearly impossible for the average person to get. A concession to Japan's history made katana a cultural asset. In a country that strictly controls guns, these "cultural asset" permits are also hard to get. While it is regularly discussed in recent years, changes to the law on katana have not happened. Somewhat like the banned knives in America, katana ownership is not seriously enforced in Japan unless there is a problem. If you are going into a kenjutsu with your katana in its sword bag you are not likely to have a police officer stop you and ask to see your permit.

A work-around in the law was added to allow "Practice Swords" for martial arts training. These were supposed to have non-lethal edges. However, they could be sharpened for "Cutting Practice".
Basically, if you take a sword and harm/threaten somebody it is a banned weapon and you are in big trouble. Practicing martial arts and cutting tatami mats is legal.
IIRC, you must be under the training of a Master who is licensed.

Only traditional katana meet the "cultural asset" loophole. Making or possessing any other type sword is illegal ... even for practice.

Bokken is made of wood and not considered a sword/katana under the law.

Guns are really hard to own in Japan. The permit is extremely difficult to get and costly. Any handgun or long gun that holds more than 3 bullets is completely illegal.
 
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Lots of incorrect info above. Swords are very easy to own in Japan. ALL handmade swords require a registration certificate called a torokusho. This little certificate is kept with all the millions of swords in Japan. When you buy one in Japan, you are supposed to just notify the ministry of change of ownership, although few do. You can buy and sell registered swords all day in Japan, even buy them in flea markets. You have to avoid non-registered swords though. But since there are millions in Japan, buying and selling is a daily thing.
On export, you notify them of the export, and apply for deregistration, and once that is done, the sword can leave Japan.
 
Thanks.
I was mostly explaining how the laws were written initially, and what the "legal" requirements are.
I have read that the enforcement of the laws was like our switchblade laws ... still on the books ... but rarely enforced.

In the USA it is easy to buy and own a switchblade, millions are in private hands, and every knife show has hundreds on the tables ... but they are still illegal to manufacture/sell/buy in interstate commerce or as a business. Our 1958 "Switchblade Act" is still a law, but people interpret it the way they want, and the authorities ignore it 99% of the time. One way the state laws have worked around that is changing the wording of laws. By the wording of the older laws, "switchblades" are still illegal in 49 states and DC ... but "Automatic and OTF Knives" are legal in 46 states. It is up to the legal officers and courts to decide if it is a switchblade or an automatic knife.


Old Memories:
Many years ago, at Blade, I had made an elaborate tanto with a dragon carved tsuka/saya in snakewood.
The owner of (Sune?) Seki Knives in Japan (my Southern drawl friend called him "Sonny Seki) used to come to Blade and buy rare knives for his collection and museum. He was buying six ivory handled Loveless knives from my tablemate for $30,000.00 and looked at my tanto. He said it was a very nice knife. I offered him a very good price and he told me he would buy it in a heartbeat if it was western, but the difficulty of importing a Japanese style knife would not be worth the trouble. He said, without papers, it would likely be confiscated at customs.
I forget which year it was, but that tanto was in one of the "Knives" yearly books. I sold it to a collector along with a wakizashi I made with all mokume koshirae. When the gent died, the family was going to liquidate his collection. I offered to buy back those two items but was told they were being kept by the family because they were his favorite pieces. He had thousands of knives and swords but kept those two in his living room on a kake.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Thanks.
I was mostly explaining how the laws were written initially, and what the "legal" requirements are.
I have read that the enforcement of the laws was like our switchblade laws ... still on the books ... but rarely enforced.

In the USA it is easy to buy and own a switchblade, millions are in private hands, and every knife show has hundreds on the tables ... but they are still illegal to manufacture/sell/buy in interstate commerce or as a business. Our 1958 "Switchblade Act" is still a law, but people interpret it the way they want, and the authorities ignore it 99% of the time. One way the state laws have worked around that is changing the wording of laws. By the wording of the older laws, "switchblades" are still illegal in 49 states and DC ... but "Automatic and OTF Knives" are legal in 46 states. It is up to the legal officers and courts to decide if it is a switchblade or an automatic knife.


Old Memories:
Many years ago, at Blade, I had made an elaborate tanto with a dragon carved tsuka/saya in snakewood.
The owner of (Sune?) Seki Knives in Japan (my Southern drawl friend called him "Sonny Seki) used to come to Blade and buy rare knives for his collection and museum. He was buying six ivory handled Loveless knives from my tablemate for $30,000.00 and looked at my tanto. He said it was a very nice knife. I offered him a very good price and he told me he would buy it in a heartbeat if it was western, but the difficulty of importing a Japanese style knife would not be worth the trouble. He said, without papers, it would likely be confiscated at customs.
I forget which year it was, but that tanto was in one of the "Knives" yearly books. I sold it to a collector along with a wakizashi I made with all mokume koshirae. When the gent died, the family was going to liquidate his collection. I offered to buy back those two items but was told they were being kept by the family because they were his favorite pieces. He had thousands of knives and swords but kept those two in his living room on a kake.
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Wasn't that Yuhei Sakai? (I hope my spelling is correct) He owned Sakai Cutlery.

If so I met him in LA in '87. He bought a Loveless boot knife from David Steele and he bought a WW2 2nd pattern Fairbairn from me for his collection/museum.

He made knives for Cold Steel, SOG and many others........
 
Bear in mind that non Japanese (fully traditionally made) swords are illegal in Japan, they can't be registered. So if you were importing a real Japanese sword or tanto, it would go for registration on entry into Japan and after a while you would get a permit to take it in and get a torokusho. But there is no way to register non traditionally made swords, tanto etc. So yeah...those would be denied no matter what they are. Knives are a different story, but if it is over a certain length and has a mekugi ana (hole for the retaining peg) then it falls under the laws.
He was correct of course.
Sakai made many knives for Western companies. I think the roots of Gerber, Al Mar, SOG, Cold Steel, Kershaw etc etc all lie with early Japanese makers like Hattori, Sakai etc.
Steven...if you still have any FS here in SA..let me know :) One of my specialities. Along with a small but fairly decent Japanese sword collection.
 
"....Wasn't that Yuhei Sakai? (I hope my spelling is correct) He owned Sakai Cutlery....."

Yes, I believe that was the fellow.
Very nice chap. He had made an appointment with my friend, Wade prior to Blade. Didn't speak a lot of English but had an interpreter/assistant with him who also carried a heavy canvas bag. When the price was reached over the Loveless knives (they started at $35K and dickered down to $30K), the assistant opened the bag and took out three $10,000 bundles of $100 bills and handed them to Mr. Sakai. He then placed the knives in a separate part of the pack and closed it up. Then, they went off to buy other knives. I was told he would meet the big-name guys in The Pit the evening before the show and buy the best of the high-end knives. One fellow sold everything he had brought and just had a photo album and his cards on his table for the show. I don't know how much cash was in that bag pack, but it had to be over $100,000.
 
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